Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

I want to take this opportunity to apologize to Amir and ASR members. No stance taken on a public forum is worthy of ridicule and you have every right to voice your opinions on this or any forum. Having said this, I dont believe you could be more wrong in much of what you say and the things that you use to back up your beliefs count for very little. Worse, for me, is that I believe you are doing your members and this hobby a great disservice encouraging them to follow an ideology which is completely false. Encouraging skepticism and due dilligence is fine, but implying that they dont trust their senses is not. 

Now that this out of the way, I can ignore you just I have before this thread started. 

@knock1

This from latest Amir’s post

- How about wires? Have you listened to wires?

“Many times.”

- Can you hear a difference?

“Very often."

Mr. Amir in the introduction to one of his videos stated

"we absolutely can measure the differences between cables. The question is do those measurements matter as far as the perception, and the short answer is they don’t"

I am confused now.’

 

These kinds of contradicting statements are commonly made by individuals suffering from cognitive dissonance, knock1. Cognitive dissonance occurs in those who hold contradictory beliefs at the same time, and/or make statements that contradict, as those statements are made according to suit whatever argument is preferred at the time. Amir has made similar contradictory statements on a number of other issues - he has also conceded that measurements are not enough to tell the entire story, and yet bases all his arguments on them. It is my hope less experienced audiophiles see through the techniques of paltering and prevarication he engages in order to avoid confrontation over issues he has no proper answer for. While perfectly acceptable that one need not have answer for everything, Amir has worked his way into a corner where he must have a reply for anything, due to his deep belief measurements are all that matter. I have come to realise measurements are all he has, to overcome his inability to listen critically, possibly compounded by that one bad experience all audiophiles have at some point over a misinformed purchase made before better listening skills were cultivated. And, instead of putting the effort into learning how to listen more critically, he fell back on measurements for the security of quantitatively feeling right, as many audiophiles with lesser hearing ability also do.

For those less experienced audiophiles who rely more on measurements than their ears, please please know that a whole other world exists that developed listening ability will reveal. Please do not be discouraged by the mistakes you may have made. And please do not be misled by Amir into confirmation bias by hearing what your measurements tell you.

In friendship, kevin

Amir refuse to engage on hearing theory in acoustics.😁

He answered only about gear measurements and created discussions about this SECONDARY matter...

Subjectivist takes the bait and gulp it with the line...

😊

What is hearing? and what it is not ?

What do we hear when we hear a sound ?

Is there a difference when human hear speech, stereo playback music and natural sound ?

When we choose a piece of gear and connect it in our system and in our room and for our ears, does it make sense if we see the sheet where Amir has written the verified specs measured again does it make sense to claim that we will be able to predict if the S.Q. will be good or not so ?

The answer is evident it cannot be yes ...

Because there is no linear connection between sound experience and any gear specs ; they are not acoustics measures, then does not means much save for the gear electrical synergy.

Measuring a single speakers did not say anything important about his concrete installation and the resulting acoustic experience but only can confirm what the designer intent was or not with the basic specs.

Amir techno-cultist ideology reflect the state of our social fabric : in shambles because of the gullibility of masses easy to control as sheep going in the "right" direction...

But some are able to read a text in acoustics and makes their own mind and experiments....

And some at least keep secure their only treasure : their ears...

A very deceptive sense according to Amir trained to spot digital artefacts...😊

As if there was a relation between spotting digital artefact and recognizing all sounds in a jungle environment or evaluate any acoustic parameters in a dedicated room for our ears specific psychoacoustics parameters...

All these perceptions about acoustic qualities dont ask for "acuity" as much as they ask for the right concept to be known and recognized...Nobody can recognize and evaluate what he dont know about even if he had sensed it ...

We perceive more, if we had the right acoustic concept nevermind our measured "acuity", than a person with only  top notch acuity but no conceptual experience about the sound qualities and meanings he was hearing...

Amir has acuity but does he know how to change for the better the system/room ears experience in an evident way with a bundle of straws or some empty toilet paper or plastic  roll?😎

Does he understand how work mechanical crossfeed or listener envelopment ?

No because he need to compute each parameters separately for dimensions, geometry, size, location, and there is no simple recipe to compute it optimally for all room geometry, size, topology and all acoustic content, and all room pressure zone locations ( too much factors non linearly linked together ). We need our ears/brain trained with basic acoustics concepts if we want to recognize the S.Q. parameters interaction and their resulting meanings at the end.

Anyway discussing with him about gear specs measures will only comfort his digital ideology...

Amir is not even wrong here ...😊

 

Amir sell gear pieces...

He does not sell knowledge and experiments ...

Nothing will be wrong with that but his ideology about the measures presented as the only truth is the problem...

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

Hi Amir,

Does the 1KHz tone that you measure on the DAC, does it tell you how good the bass is or how sweet the treble sounds?  Do you have a test for these as well?