Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

One good fetish deserves another.

---Here electrical specs of gear: A

---Here psychoacoustical characteristic of human hearing about the way our brain extract information from natural sound, because our ears is biased in some time breaking symmetry direction. B

Then to connect A and B we need to know how to measure and design the gear accordingly to these psychoacoustics characteristics...because our brain is wired in some way by evolution to perceive in a non linear way ( with sharp attack, long decay) all sounds in his own time domain ... Then no Fourier maps of gear specs as Amir use them can predict sound quality for our ears evaluation...

Amir said no , we dont need that, only the electrical tools we use are good enough to predict S.Q.

This contradict elementary psychoacoustics research...

Do you get it ?

Stop accusing me of fetichism , you project onto others your own image ...

Grow....And read...

I underline the essential for you to ponder over :

«We have demonstrated that human auditory perception is primed for the shapes of natural sounds,a sharp attack followed by a long decay, corresponding to the physics of natural sound production. We have used simple, direct psychophysical measurements to test for the changes in simultaneous time-frequency acuity after reversing the temporal direction of symmetry-broken pulses, lending credence to,
at the minimum, statistical priors for sharp attack, long decay sounds. Such statistical priors add to the growing body of evidence that human auditory processing is adapted for natural sounds. Not only then is auditory processing inherently nonlinear, these nonlinearities are used to improve perceptual acuity to
sounds that correspond to the physics of natural sound production.»

 
 

 

 

I don’t need to deconstruct Amir. He is perfect, just the way he is. Some of his beliefs are not based in truth....and someday he will truly understand. We all will. Are you superior to me because I don’t quote science articles? Why would I care what others say about listening? My own ears know the truth. Be true to yourself. Stand in your truth.

You don’t need to fight.......anyone....ever. You are perfect....just the way you are. Do you feel more love towards yourself and everyone after you post? After you put up all those links to articles practically no one reads? I want you to feel better and better about yourself....every day.....I want you to make every post you write a beautiful love letter to yourself sayng how much you are loved. I love my self with all my heart and soul......WE are ALL so Beautiful.......Kisses and hugs.

Here is a song I sing sometimes:

"There is nothing to need, hide from or fear. We are whole and complete, right now and right here".

Stop accusing me of fetichism , you project onto others your own image ...

Stop projecting! You accused others of fetichism. I just pointed out yours accordingly.

Also I read the article. Does not help me determine what to buy in any way.

I am fetish-agnostic . I take it all in. Your fetish appears to totally consume you to the point of not being capable of considering anything else.

Help us out. What specific gear is best in your assessment? How did you make that determination?

 

Thanks.

 

I don’t need to deconstruct Amir.

Then why so much other insult him non stop WITHOUT giving any scientific argument as i did ?

 

Stop projecting! You accused others of fetichism. I just pointed out yours accordingly.

 

--- Many Subjectivist are fetichist of their gear pieces Brand name as SOLUTION for all ...

This is illustrated by all audio thread...😊 It is not always bad i used statistical analysis of all reviews to buy my gear)

---Many objectivists are fetichists of their own measuring tool and only bought what their tools dictate... ( specs are useful for basic electrical synergy and designing minimal standards of quality thats all they are mostly meaningless to predict sound quality )

 

If you had read my posts instead of insulting me and asking me to quit , you will know that i use my ears and i use also objective acoustics parameters measures to create my own dedicated room based on Helmholtz principle among other basic acoustics facts..

I never proposed my favorite gear as SOLUTION for the only reason it is my fetish object of choice as others did all the time ( i modified my gear anyway😋) ... And i dont propose my fetish tool as the ONLY solution to gear purchase as Amir does...

i for years advocated for many low cost tweaks ... ( i was insulted for that as thin foil hat )

but i am most interested in acoustics science now because i go deeper in experiments ...

Then if you can think you can see that i am not fetichist about any object, gear or tool , but i am interested by acoustic principle to install the gear and make it work at his optimal level ... ( i modified my headphone and my speakers)

Complete success at peanuts cost thanks to acoustic experiments and other tweaks i designed ..

i promote reading basic acoustics.. ( not just room acoustic basic)

Then i cannot be accused of fetichism because there is no object on which i focus my exclusive interest save science and experiments in acoustic..

Then you insulted me with NO REASON ...