Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

@mahgister Hey magister! I don’t hate Amir, I just don’t like his style and motives. You’re not remotely qualified to assess what I say and mean, and for that matter, never have been.

You, if anyone, are not polite. You explode with anger all the time and when confronted with your behavior, you apologize. You’ve done that many, many times.

you came back answering me without sarcasm this time or insults as one year ago with laoman and few others... These small gang harasseed me this year with no post content in many threads..

They go and come back...

it is true i answered their harassment instead of staying mute...

I apologize when i am wrong...i did not apologize to them...

They never apologize for their sarcasms..

Why did i adressed  you here and during a year now  if not politely and i even congratulate you  nonoise?

Who put a non sensical sarcasm  here adressing me like one year ago about a rational discussion here suggesting two chikens cacklings : Amir and me ?

i spoke of "hate" when people are unable to apologize, unable to forgot past discussions, and go on gangstalking one and going back again and again...

Then i am not patient because i answer about what you forgot easily : harassments, sarcasms, no arguments save AD HOMINEM attack by 3 or 4 people you know well  ...

Enjoy ...

 

 

People should get their facts straight before posting.

Speaking as a professional engineer now for almost a good 40 years, like him or not, right or wrong, Amir is clearly an experienced engineer and that is what he is selling.

Engineering is based on math and science. That’s how our hifi gear gets produced and no two pieces are exactly the same in that regard. So I think it is often a challenge for many to understand how engineers must think and operate in order to be successful.

Some engineers can lose that mold and adapt to being able to communicate better with others who do not have that background. Others not so much. Communication is a key ingredient in pretty much everything...including engineering. It’s perhaps the main ingredient in successful marketing including of one’s engineering accomplishments. People need to speak a common language to communicate effectively. That’s hard and something we all probably need to work on, including many engineers like myself and others I work with. The best engineers seldom make for the best marketing reps. Two different mindsets and ways of communicating in order to be successful.

Even the best engineers make mistakes and will work to correct them. The very best engineers I’ve worked with know what they do not know as well as what they do and operate accordingly.

 

 

Last year Amir rejected from the back of his hand the competence and articles of Van Maanen i used to make my point...

Today he did the same without adressing m 5 reference articles above from different scientists about the context in which ANY set of measures must be interpreted in psychoacoustics. Instead he alleged that Van Maanen made no measurements about what he spoke about. Last year he insinuated that it is only a designer selling his gear.😊

When we measure the gear piece specs to falsify or verify the design piece we do a good job; but if we extrapolate this measures as a prediction about good sound out of any psychoacoustics context of evaluation we go to far.

van Maanen is also a designer and use his psychoacoustics knowledge in his own design.

Amir measure specs of piece of gear, which he never designed himself, then  he does not use as ground real psychoacoustics parameters based on an explicit  hearing theory, save blind test to debunk audiophiles listener; then how Amir could promote as truth  his set of verification claiming  for it a guarantee of good sound experience ? he did this as a marketing of his site tools not as science. He is not Van Maanen. 😊

 

Here is a description of who is the physicist Van Maanen:

«Hans van Maanen’s work has significantly influenced modern audio technology, particularly in the areas of high-resolution audio (HRA) and high-end audio (HEA) systems. His research and findings have shaped the understanding and development of audio technologies aimed at achieving accurate and perceptually transparent sound reproduction.

Temporal Coherence and Audibility

Van Maanen has conducted extensive research and listening tests on the audibility of high frequencies (e.g., 15kHz) and the importance of temporal coherence in audio reproduction. His work emphasizes the need for accurate temporal and spectral reproduction to faithfully convey the nuances and details of recorded audio signals as perceived by the human auditory system.

Objective Measurements and Psychoacoustic Confirmations

Van Maanen advocates for the use of objective measurements and psychoacoustic confirmations to evaluate the performance of audio systems. He emphasizes the importance of aligning technical specifications with perceptual aspects, ensuring that advancements in audio technology translate into tangible improvements in the listening experience.

Requirements for High-Resolution Audio Systems

Van Maanen has published papers outlining the requirements for loudspeakers and headphones in the "High Resolution Audio" era. His work highlights the need for accurate temporal and spectral reproduction, low distortion, and extended frequency response to fully realize the potential of high-resolution audio formats.

Influence on Audio Industry and Standards

Through his research, publications, and participation in industry events and conferences, van Maanen’s work has influenced the development of audio technologies and standards. His insights have shaped the understanding of perceptual aspects of sound reproduction and have guided the design and implementation of high-end audio systems. In summary, Hans van Maanen’s pioneering work on temporal coherence, audibility of high frequencies, and the perceptual aspects of sound reproduction has significantly influenced modern audio technology, particularly in the realm of high-resolution and high-end audio systems. His emphasis on objective measurements, psychoacoustic confirmations, and aligning technical specifications with human perception has shaped the industry’s approach to achieving transparent and faithful audio reproduction.»

not only that you distorted the matter saying your sinad tool is not a Fourier tool. This is an half truth. why ?

It is the full truth.  Fourier transform takes a time domain signal and converts to fundamental sine waves that created it.  This is a proven mathematical relationship.  Just like Pythagorean formula.  It is not subject to debate.  And  no experiment whatsoever has disproven it.  Again, it is a mathematical proof ("theorem").

There is an observation with respect to such a transform that follows the same in quantum mechanics called Heisenberg uncertainty principle.   It says that the more you know about a particles momentum, the less you know about its position and vice versa.  The comparable version for Fourier transform is that to get more accuracy in frequency domain, the less you know about its timing and vice versa.  Here is a nice video explaining all of this briefly:

 

The research you put forward says that our hearing system due to its non-linearities, doesn't follow this relationship.  That when we trade off timing resolution vs frequency, they don't follow a 1:1 relationship.  But this has no bearing whatsoever on audio measurements!  In audio measurements, we have a known, usually simple input signal.  At no time are we interested in its characteristics with respect to time domain.  What we want to know is when it goes into our audio system, does it create noise and distortion that is NOT in the audio signal that was input.

Take my dashboard for example:

 

On the left is a simple sine wave.  In a perfect system, its fourier transform would produce a single spike (on the right) at its frequency and that would be it.  Above is not an ideal system so we see harmonic distortion and noise.

The uncertainty principle comes into play in that I had to select large enough number of audio samples to give us the resolution we need on the right to clearly see the spurious tones created by the non-linearities of device under test.  For my dashboard, I use 32,000 samples. 

It is true then that you don't know where in those 32,000 samples that distortion profile exist from the fourier transform.  But you do know that because the above sine wave never changes!  It goes on forever producing a single tone at 1 kHz.

I demonstrate all of this in my view on FFT:

 

Because the number of samples I use is programable, the fourier transforms I show hugely outperform human ear!  To wit, I can measure the frequency components of a signal to less than 1 Hz if I want.  Human ear has far lower resolution, expressed as ERB:

 

At 10 KHz, our hearing's frequency discrimination is as poor as 1000 Hz! 

All tools in audio directly or indirectly use Fourier mathematics as direct tool or  as the only context of interpretation.

No, no, no. Some of the measurements I perform have been around for nearly a century!  Way before we have had any audio analyzer had any computing ability to produce fourier transform.  You can go on ebay and buy analog THD+N analyzers such as this:

 

My analyzer produces a more accurate version of these measurements but no fourier analysis is used, and even if it had, it would not matter per my explanation above.

Take this PrimaLuna tube amplifier:

 

You can take to the bank that it has power supply noise and distortion.  There is no uncertainty about that.

Finally, our knowledge of psychoacoustics is strongly based on actual human listening tests.  Whatever the ear+brain can do, is already embedded in that science.  The experiment you keep citing does not change any of that.

So please, for love of everyone, don't keep repeating what you have been saying about measurements, how they work and their use of fourier transform, or not.