Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

You can say whatever fantasy you believe.....However, I dare any of you earth flatters to go over to someones house that has a serious stereo and has a bunch of buddies over and they A/B various gear......even of the same price and measured capabilities........They will all hear the differences in cables, DACs and whatever....while you are there. Will you admit to hearing any differences? You see, you will NEVER EVER let yourself be in this kind of situation. If you did not hear any differences they would spread the word all over the net that you are deaf. If you heard the differences then you would have to admit to the whole world that you were WRONG all those years. So.....your ego defense mechanism will NEVER allow you to be a room where this is happening. What cowards you all are.....he he. Sweet but cowardly.

As I have said before.....only the deaf and the double deaf need blind and double blind tests to know what is real. We can hear amazing differences within seconds....and yes, it is repeatable. Did you guys listen to the link I posted? Did you hear the differences? Will you admit it?

This thread (and type of thread) will go on forever and ever....because the earth flatters will never give in.

May we all enjoy our low distorton systems.....whether it is by measurements or by listening. I wish you all the goosebumps in the universe.

Imagine if audiophiles all went with measurements only. They would all have pretty much the same gear and sound.


What would be left to debate? Recording quality? Boring!

“Why did Joe spend all that extra money for the same results”?

But I guess all would have rightful bragging rights. Not a bad deal, but its a fantasy.

Science cannot account for how people think. So rest easy audiophiles. The ranks may be dwindling big-time but there is still hope!

 

 

 

@markwd "We have theories like linear and non-linear distortions..."

Exactly, you have just theories (general propositions)!

Do note that manufacturers’ specs can be false and also that a specific unit may be broken. Testing by a third party like ASR can help to ascertain the reasons for the differences, not always perfectly, but they would add additional support to these apparently tendentious ideas about these products.

Sorry, but that's a big conditional "can" along with "a specific" and to imply that Amir is gonna come to the rescue smacks of a little  bit of hero worship. Earlier on, one member spoke of the different filter settings on a Technics unit that all measured the same but sounded different.

There is no evidence for the presence of other types of unmeasurable phenomena.

I found a similar review of my Technics SL-G700 Network/SACD Player where the reviewer spoke to Technics about the 4 (or so) digital filter settings and they told him that although they all measured the same, they sounded distinctly different and it was up to the listener to pick the one they preferred. Others have measured it and found out it to be the case as well. It should be easy enough to procure a unit, test it, and lay that dog to rest.

All I could hear was a slight difference and went with the setting that didn't alter the incoming signal at all based on what reviewers were told by Technics, and yes, I could be fooled into not picking out the one I'm presently using that measures the same as the others as they're slight. That would more in the realm of a parlor trick.

There's more than meets the eye, and scope. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@ricevs 

Well, the arguments presented above don't resemble a fantasy and flat-Earthers are the ones holding fast to irrational beliefs when presented with evidence to the contrary, so I'm both amused and confused by your presentation. You are also directly contradicted by Amir's discussion of cable testing, above, but I do encourage you to continue to research, learn, and perhaps someday ABX prove some of your ideas!

I personally have no particular ego investment in audio equipment but do like trying to understand online communities and how beliefs (and fantasies) develop.