Let's talk music, no genre boundaries

@stuartk 

I'm listening to Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil." It is beautifully recorded on Qobuz. Otherwise I would have bought the album. Thanks for the tip.

Dylan might have received the Nobel Prize for Literature. I can't remember. I know what you're saying about song writing being different than poetry, but some song writers are much more poetic than others. Probably Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell go on the top of my list for poetics. Also Paul Simon. I think the best poem/song Dylan ever wrote was "All Along the Watchtower." It works like a poem with an open ending to draw the reader in, and have them go back and pay more attention to what led up to the open ending.

I'm not comparing Judy Collins singing to Bob Dylan's writing. I just think that's the best version of "Tom Thumb's Blues" I've ever heard. Did you catch Ry Cooder's guitar? He's unmistakeable. There are a few musicians I can always tell. Stevie  Wonder's harmonica. In jazz, of course, Coltrane's sax and Miles Davis' trumpet. Stan Getz and Chet Baker. I don't think we ever talked about Paul Desmond and the west coast jazz players on the jazz forum. I am a fan. 

Back to Bob Dylan. I had some musician friends when I was at Berkeley and I remember one, David Lieberman, excitedly playing "Hey Mister Tamborine Man" for me. He had never heard anything like it. Although, I don't know if you could say a new type of song writing wouldn't have happened without Dylan. Newton and Leibniz discovered calculus at the same time. To me that proves that when something is ready to happen, it will. But, yes, let's give Dylan credit. The biggest problem I have with him is the misogyny in his songs. Women often take a bad rap. And on that topic of gender, I must admit that "Mr. Jones" was brilliantly filled with inference.

But if any song writer should have gotten the Nobel Prize for Literature, I think it should have been Leonard Cohen, who was a poet as well as song writer. I don't think he was influenced by Dylan, but having Dylan open up the field for new types of music probably helped him. I heard Dylan interviewed and he compared himself to Paul Simon. He said he couldn't write melodies like Simon. He wrote words and put them on old tunes. I don't know if that's always true, but it is true a lot of the time.

@audio-b-dog 

You’re welcome.

I’d certainly agree that some songwriters are more poetic. I’d also agree that there would’ve been some sort of change in approach to songwriting in the 60’s/70’s without Dylan, but who can say what that would have been?  It may well be that due to growing up when I did, I’m according Dylan more credit than he deserves. I’m not a scholar.  I’m not a huge fan of P. Simon so I don’t feel I can be very objective comparing him to Dylan. Joni Mitchell has spoken about two Major influences : Dylan and the crooners such as Bing Crosby as embodying, respectively, the virtues of open ended lyric writing and melody. She saw both as crucial. Dylan, in an interview with Dan Rather (who’s done a series of surprisingly good interviews with musical icons from 60s’70’s) asserted he "didn’t know who wrote" his early songs such as Gates of Eden. He said after a certain point, he could no longer write that way, as if some magic had dispersed. 

As far as misogyny goes, there is plenty of blame to go around, in various genres/fields. This question of whether /to what degree, an artist’s bad behavior  should/shouldn’t shape our view of his art has come up before on the forum. For some, it’s a gray area; for others, it’s black and white. Edward Weston cheated on his wife a lot. To what degree should this affect my appreciation for his photographs? If I reject his work, does that improve the lives of women? What do you think? 

I cannot understand any poet failing to love Dylan or Cohen...

I like them and dislike most popular music...

And English is not my language...

In French the only singer i listened to is Léo Ferré... A poet too ...

I like  old french songs  and old english songs though... But it is considered classical music...

@mahgister 

Before I say anything, you must afford me the right to my opinion. I am a person with perhaps more complicated opinions than others. Bob Dylan is about six years older than I am, but we're basically of the same generation even though I am considered a Baby Boomer and he of the Silent Generation. He wasn't at all silent, I think we can all agree on that.

When I am afforded extra, kind of "inside" information about celebrities, I often make judgements. I live in L.A. and I often receive this kind of information. From what I have heard, Dylan is a sad person. Although he has been with quite a few women (as have I) and fathered children (not I), he seems to be pretty much alone. He has never developed familial ties.

The roots of Dylan's early relations with women are well defined in the recent film about him, "A Complete Unknown." The film pretty much ends with one of the women he was with (Joan Baez?) flipping him off. The film portrays him as a person who is more interested in himself than anyone else. I think his later years have shown him to be a kind of recluse.

How has all of this affected his music? His music about social matters are strong and don't seem to be affected. His music about personal matters, however, do seem to be affected by this. Just listen to how he writes about women. Kind of Madonna/whore syndrome. Does this make him less of a good poet. Yes. I say yes. 

Leonard Cohen also had complicated relationships with women, but his songs are so nuanced on the matter. Leonard Cohen writes about relationships in so much more of a loving way than Dylan. He sees himself as an actor, whereas Dylan pretty much sees himself as a victim. I'm sorry. I'm a poet and I listen to lyrics. 

In regards to his stance on social matters, I think Dylan was important. But so were other singers who influenced him. Woody Guthrie and Pete Seager. Probably Hank Williams. So to summarize, as a social commenter, Dylan was important and strong, although there was a lineage behind him. As a writer of personal matters, Dylan was pretty weak, especially compared to songwriters around him like Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell, who were able to see themselves in their writing.

Bob Dylan's poetics was often pretty lazy. He'd throw in an extra word not used in conversaton to complete an iamb. (Unstressed, stressed.) It was not really noticed. People didn't care about it because his social songs were so new and strong. Although he has a witchy woman in "Tom Thumb Blues," he also has strong and beautiful imagery. In "Maggie's Farm" he is the victim of a woman. On one of my favorite albums (I have almost all of his work on vinyl) "Nashville Skyline," women are idealized. But the music is lovely and there is always Johnny Cash. 

I understand that probably a lot of writers and poets who have been awarded the Nobel have lived lonely, screwed-up lives, but I don't know about them, and I do know something about Bob Dylan.

On the other hand, Leonard Cohen lived a somewhat magical life. He spent years in a Buddhist monestary trying to figure himself out as he got older. People loved him and he loved others, even those he had to leave.

Joni Mitchell was probably more self-aware in her songs than anyone. I listen to the lyrics. In the future I will post songs that I think are well wrought, with strong lyrics. I admit that "Tom Thumb Blues" is one of those songs. The lyrics stand up and are complex. But so many of Bob Dylan's songs don't stand up so well. And in very few, if any, is he self-aware.

So, I am not a friend or confidant of Bob Dylan and I may be totally wrong in my judgement. Some people might say I'm wrong to judge at all. Yet, I do. And that's me.

For sure you had the right to your opinion as i have and we are different and as frogman says there is no best only "our own best" informed by our own journey...

In your post you spoke a lot about the personal life  of these two artists and their relation to women...

For me i did not pay attention to these aspects as very important but only part of a larger journey...( i try to not judge people life with narrow glasses of my prefered color) 

I must say i did not understand history or poetry as a war between patriarchy versus matriarchy... I see it on other ground...Try Iain McGilchrist if Jean Gebser is outdated, McGilchrist live right now...He rooted his work in the hemispherical modes of attention... 

Or try another genius who also treated consciousness history in relation with language but he is dead and probably outdated if i takes into account your use of dating for philosophical work : Julian Jaynes "the genesis of consciousness in the breakdown of the bi-cameral mind"... Jaynes too use a theory of hemispheric polarities but different than McGilchrist... I will not enter into deetails here ...

Anyway i apologize if i defended Dylan who nevermind his life, was a poet of the highest kind in the popular scene as "murder no foul"  demonstrated as  his last genius work...

 To make amend i will give you to listen  a feminine singer not well known i love a lot :  Masha Vahdat 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJYMLzbHdWM&list=RDEJYMLzbHdWM&start_radio=1

 And another one popular in Russia a veritable poet who sing poetry, no need to understand Russian" to be moved : 

Elena Frolova:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFEeNcvgPVo&list=RDiFEeNcvgPVo&start_radio=1

Abida Parveen who move even mountain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR7WrlUM3FE&list=RDfR7WrlUM3FE&start_radio=1

 As you can see in popular music i am very attuned to the feminine power...I owned most of their music, which is a lot of albums by Frolova in particular...

I must add Tripti Mukherjee among many other feminine vocalists i love dearly:

Here she sing with one of the greatest Indian singer :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j4brANIdE8&list=RD4j4brANIdE8&start_radio=1

@mahgister 

Before I say anything, you must afford me the right to my opinion. I am a person with perhaps more complicated opinions than others. Bob Dylan is about six years older than I am, but we’re basically of the same generation even though I am considered a Baby Boomer and he of the Silent Generation. He wasn’t at all silent, I think we can all agree on that.

When I am afforded extra, kind of "inside" information about celebrities, I often make judgements. I live in L.A. and I often receive this kind of information. From what I have heard, Dylan is a sad person. Although he has been with quite a few women (as have I) and fathered children (not I), he seems to be pretty much alone. He has never developed familial ties.

The roots of Dylan’s early relations with women are well defined in the recent film about him, "A Complete Unknown." The film pretty much ends with one of the women he was with (Joan Baez?) flipping him off. The film portrays him as a person who is more interested in himself than anyone else. I think his later years have shown him to be a kind of recluse.

How has all of this affected his music? His music about social matters are strong and don’t seem to be affected. His music about personal matters, however, do seem to be affected by this. Just listen to how he writes about women. Kind of Madonna/whore syndrome. Does this make him less of a good poet. Yes. I say yes. 

Leonard Cohen also had complicated relationships with women, but his songs are so nuanced on the matter. Leonard Cohen writes about relationships in so much more of a loving way than Dylan. He sees himself as an actor, whereas Dylan pretty much sees himself as a victim. I’m sorry. I’m a poet and I listen to lyrics. 

In regards to his stance on social matters, I think Dylan was important. But so were other singers who influenced him. Woody Guthrie and Pete Seager. Probably Hank Williams. So to summarize, as a social commenter, Dylan was important and strong, although there was a lineage behind him. As a writer of personal matters, Dylan was pretty weak, especially compared to songwriters around him like Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell, who were able to see themselves in their writing.

Bob Dylan’s poetics was often pretty lazy. He’d throw in an extra word not used in conversaton to complete an iamb. (Unstressed, stressed.) It was not really noticed. People didn’t care about it because his social songs were so new and strong. Although he has a witchy woman in "Tom Thumb Blues," he also has strong and beautiful imagery. In "Maggie’s Farm" he is the victim of a woman. On one of my favorite albums (I have almost all of his work on vinyl) "Nashville Skyline," women are idealized. But the music is lovely and there is always Johnny Cash. 

I understand that probably a lot of writers and poets who have been awarded the Nobel have lived lonely, screwed-up lives, but I don’t know about them, and I do know something about Bob Dylan.

On the other hand, Leonard Cohen lived a somewhat magical life. He spent years in a Buddhist monestary trying to figure himself out as he got older. People loved him and he loved others, even those he had to leave.

Joni Mitchell was probably more self-aware in her songs than anyone. I listen to the lyrics. In the future I will post songs that I think are well wrought, with strong lyrics. I admit that "Tom Thumb Blues" is one of those songs. The lyrics stand up and are complex. But so many of Bob Dylan’s songs don’t stand up so well. And in very few, if any, is he self-aware.

So, I am not a friend or confidant of Bob Dylan and I may be totally wrong in my judgement. Some people might say I’m wrong to judge at all. Yet, I do. And that’s me.