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An Audiophile Goal

An Audiophile Goal.

I have been grappling with the perceived problem of listening to LPs at the same volume setting, for every LP. The original post that I addressed this problem with is here http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1179765549&openmine&zzAcoustat6&4&5#Acoustat6. It was to discuss my idea of playing back all LPs at the same volume setting regardless of type of music or recording etc. To say it was a debacle would be an understatement to say the least. The discussion did not start the way I thought it would and went quickly downhill from there. I would like to put that behind me and realize why it was so controversial and failed as a discussion. As I originally said this idea was new to me and it took such a long time to coagulate my thoughts about this and the reasons why it works. The answer is obvious now. I didn't have an audiophile goal.

I got the answer from reading the recent post about J. Gordon Holts article in Stereophile which was discussed on Audiogon. .
The reference being about an audiophile goal in one of the posts. This was my thought, myself and audiophiles in general don't have an audiophile goal (actually, I do have several but I will stick to the topic). It seems that no one can agree on a goal, its all so subjective some say, I like it loud, I like it quiet, I like a lot of bass, I like imaging and on and on. This is fine, that is why we all buy different speakers and equipment. It comes down to you can't measure music. You have to hear it, does it make your toe tap? Can you listen at a low level? Is the tweeter too bright? Is the Bass too loud? Ad nauseum. And there we go again are my toes tapping enough? What is low level listening? Is the bass loud enough for hip hop but too loud for a violin concerto?

I found myself an audiophile goal and an easy one at that, its 20-20k hz. Yeah, you like it too. Right? You buy phono cartridges, pre-amps amps etc. that are flat 20-20k hz. So my audiophile goal is to get 20-20k hz flat (as possible). I said I needed a goal! I know there is more to it than that, but undeniably it is a goal. Now if I go with a test reference of 83db at 1000hz from my test LP this will be an excellent level for dynamics, noise levels and acuteness of hearing. All that is required is 1000hz at 83db from the test LP and all other freq matching this level, So 10,000hz and 5,000hz along with 500,100, 80, 50 and 30hz with all of the freq in between at the specified level of 83db will all be played back off of the test LP at the same level or as close as possible as can be obtained within a systems speakers and equipment and rooms limitations. Find this level and you leave your volume control set to this position for every LP you play. Pretty simple actually.

The original idea came to me slowly over the last three to four years, though I struggled with the quandary for as long as I can remember and I have yet to hear anyone say, sure you don't do that? I thought we all did. All because I didn't have an audiophile goal. Now I find out that perhaps even J. Gordon Holt may not have an audiophile goal, even one as simple as this. The best thing is now I get to listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting with its attendant qualities of dynamics, constant noise levels, unchanging freq response and a host of other benefits which come along for the ride.

I knew it was wrong to be changing volume levels and bass levels for different LPs. Jumping up in the middle of a song to hear the bass drums or turning it down for a quiet violin solo and doing the same for complete albums. It was insane, I always felt like I was in junior high school cranking it up for the cool parts. But every one does it, so did I. I was missing that audiophile goal.

I enjoy listening to my Lps, many of which I still have from my early high school days and everything in between which amounts to about 2500 quality LPs. As a now confirmed audiophile, now that I have a realistic and perhaps more importantly a measurable goal, I could start figuring out which albums sound good and which do not. It was easy, every LP is played back at the same gain level (volume control setting if you will) and guess what you hear? Every Lp for what it actually sounds like.

Another benefit is that every system you hear is played back to the same standard from the same test LP, perhaps it could even be used at audio shows where every room is played back at this reference setting. If you choose not to listen at the standard then it is stated at the door that reference setting is either higher or lower than the reference. This way if you choose not to abuse your hearing in a room that is 6db above the reference standard you are warned before entering.

And all of this because J Gordon Holt didn't have an audiophile goal.

If you can listen to one Lp at a certain level whether it be a high or low level why can't you listen to any other record at that level?

Just a few thoughts.
Thanks,
Bob
acoustat6
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hello, Cdwallace is onto it, as I see it. True fidelity of the recording, but don't forget that more importantly is that this is a great way to tune your system.

Think of it this way, you select a volume setting and it would be low initially and listen to the entire listening session like this. Then the idea is to tweak every piece of equipment )one piece at a time!)to get the "best" out of it that you can. Set volume level LISTEN, adjust bass, move speakers LISTEN, move chair, adjust bass, adjust VTA, adjust VTF, tweak the volume again LISTEN adjust VTF, fine tune crossover, ETC ETC... you may change anything you want but each time continue to listen to every LP at the same settings. This cannot be achieved overnight. You might find that you like the listening level but changing the crossover point makes the bass better and louder or quieter, then change volume level again if necessary, or moving your speakers improves the imaging and bass or tweaking the VTF....etc. keep working these refinements to improve your systems playback at that level.

Unfortunately this does not work for those interested in "mood music for mating". You may have a default (lower or higher) level in the beginning (or any time but realize that this is not the optimum level), and never make any changes in your system at these different levels. Only make changes when you are doing some serious listening.

Dcstep, yeah, I'm out there and I'm loving it!:)

I am sorry to have confused you with the quote from Peter Walker of Quad fame, and HE said "There is only one correct volume level for any particular piece of music". I did not say this and sorry to throw this into the mix and confuse things. I like to keep things rational you know!
Though I have seen the quote as "there is only one volume level for every recording" NOW that reads completely different, and that can be read two ways.

Dave, said that "we all know of the LPs different recording levels and dynamic levels."
That is what I am trying to celebrate and encourage, these differences that make LPs so different (from each other) and exciting. I do believe that all LPs can/should be played back at the same level, if you like the sound of the LP is another question entirely or if your system is capable of the dynamics.
Bob
stringreen's avatar
stringreen
6,470 posts
 
My goal when I listen to music is to be moved by the music. Whether the system goes from 20-20000 hz. has nothing to do with it..as long as the system can reproduce the music in a musical way. A big problem with many systems is that not the big dynamics necessarily, but the micro dynamics are missing. To understand what the music is doing, the seperate notes ebb and flow. Listen to the Joshua Bell or Jasha Heifiz versions of the Beethoven violin concerto. They are both excellent, both recorded well, and yet they are almost 2 different pieces in enterpretation. Every single note is at a different loudness level as the one after or the one before. This variation brings understanding to the piece. Just as in a stage play the slight emphasis on this or that word can change the whole meaning of the sentence, so it is with music. This is most obvious to me in classical music, but works for rock, pop, etc. One of the big faults of my system is that at low listening levels, you (or maybe just I) don't hear this ebb and flow. If I bring up the level, there is a place that those dynamics are suddenly exposed. Sure there are a myriad of aspects to music, but just touching on this one, I always find the most rewarding turn of the volume control for each piece.
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
Acoustat6 said:
"I do believe that all LPs can/should be played back at the same level, if you like the sound of the LP is another question entirely or if your system is capable of the dynamics."

I guess that I should have asked this earlier (I've re-read and can't find my answer), but why? Other than to create a goal, which seems purely arbitrary to me, why do you "believe that all LPs can/should be played back at the same level"? If you gave a reason, I missed it at least a few times.

Your fellow audio buddy,

Dave

BTW, thanks for the REG link. He has lots of interesting views. I can't agree with everything he writes, but he does a great job of laying out his position.
emailists
923 posts
 
Bob,

I think you are focusing and obesessing about aspects of reproduction that are not going to further fidelity.

In the video world we have different levels of 1hkz tone for different tape formats, be they analog or digital. No one would expect to play them all back at the same level - even different machines will record at different levels, and therefore they must be compensated for.

I realize this issue of playing back all LP's at a common level is important to you, but please realize that you are perhaps the only one in the world who this is important to. If in fact you were looking to design a system that had no volume control to denigrate the sound, then yes, I could see this discussion bearing fruit. But that does not seem to be the case.

Our hobby is an obssesive one for sure, but when other people who share your zeal for the best reproduction possible are telling you that your focus is misguided, you may have to examen in your life what is going on, perhaps under the guidance of a professional. You seem like a very nice guy, well educated, insightful, etc. It's really worth investing in yourself to be the best person you can be. You might even find you're enjoying listening to music more without worrying about the levels each LP/recording was cut at.

Have a great holiday.
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi Dave, Thanks for having continued interest in this discussion. Actually there are many reasons for this and not limited to the few listed now.

A set level where all LPs have the ability to reveal their sonic character.

A set level for system noise.

A set level for LP/TT noise.

A set level that is consistent with human hearing at a "reasonable" level. This is NOT an arbitrary number/level.

To obtain a consistent and natural frequency level.

To set your system up within it limitations of system performance.

To obtain synergy between components.

To know what is needed to improve your system so all LPs can sound as good as they can sound, while poorly recorded LPs are revealed for what they are.

To be able to have some set goals that are obtainable and realistic.

There are other reasons that go along for the ride.

You only need so much amplification and you will know how much you need.

We don't look like a fools jumping up and down to impress our friends with our intimate knowledge of the volume control. Saying things like, this drum solo sound great LOUD, and now this part sounds great like this...
Do you wonder, if you have to do this, that your system is compressing dynamics?

It will force some people to actually listen to the music, recordings and their system. This statement is sure to get a few peoples undies in a bunch, I am ready.

Perhaps its a bit of a Zen thing at first. Just sitting there and listening to music. Maybe for the first time you will listen to the music, recording, pressing and condition of your LP playback.
Perhaps it will draw you in, to listen to downward dynamics and then shock you with your systems upward dynamics. Setting up your sytem this way encourages this. And unfortunatly show you that most LPs are compressed, noisy and have bad sonics. Fortunatly many LPs are quite listenable, even revealing the shortcomings, and great LPs are revealed.

So we all know, when stating things like I listen loud/soft, the dealer, audio show, friend etc.. cranked it up, we know what is meant by that.

Bob
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