Why vinyl?

Les, you're talking about OLD digital technology.

Using DSD @ 5.6MHz the "packets" are as dense as the oxide particles on tape and dozens of times denser than the 16-bit technology you're using as a reference. I agree with you about old 16-bit with harse filters and other shortcomings, but the new digital is leaping forward by an order of magnitude every few months. Your arguement no longer holds water.

A DSD, i-bit, 5.6MHz sample does NOT lose data in replication. It's truly archival. Using professional-level programs you can copy the file and it will be "bit-perfect" in ALL generations. This issues you address have all been addressed and corrected.

With 130dB of headroom I hardly need to worry about overload; however, if I am worried I can add attenuation or a filter. The 130dB is only the starting point, but it gives the recordist tons of options to never reach clipping.

Let me think a little. I've read some good summaries of today's state of the art. You seem interested enough that if I can find you some links you'll start getting up to date. Have you heard good DVD-A? It's not as good as DSD, which has twice the resolution, but it'll give you some idea of what's possible in the digital domain.

Please note, I still have a very good TT, tube, phono-preamp and a big library of LPs. I believe that digital is just now catching up with analog, but, based on what I hear, it's the gap has disappeared. Unfortunately, you can't buy much at the highest possible resolutions.

Dave

"I believe that digital is just now catching up with analog, but, based on what I hear, it's the gap has disappeared. Unfortunately, you can't buy much at the highest possible resolutions."

I totally agree with this statement. To me, standard redbook audio is inherently flawed due to its low resolution. When the redbook standard was invented, the ability to fit 650 MB/60-70 minutes of audio on a small plastic disc was amazing, considering hard drives at the time could store about 10 megabytes. They most likely chose 16 bit 44.1 kHz because it allowed a full 60-70 minutes of audio on this 650 megabyte disc, and also because they found that that sampling rate still captured the frequency range of normal human hearing. If they would have had the technology to put more than 650 megabytes onto a disc at that time, they most likely would have chosen a much higher sampling rate.

Dave,

Yes I have heard DVD-A and it is generally quite nice. I find it still has an edge to it that sounds not quite right but if I never was into good quality vinyl playback and was willing to re-buy my digital CD library in DVD-A it would be a good choice. I'll say the same with SACD but both formats are all but dead.

The DSD you talk about is obviously not a format for consumers (yet if ever at all). But if it is as good as you say it will be very nice with only one caveat. It again requires the listener to re-buy their libraries in this format. Add to that untold millions of records that where produced on vinyl and even cassette tape will likely never see this format. It will probably be pricey if/when it becomes a consumer format and will suffer the potential of it falling on its face as SACD and DVD-A has.

Sadly all too many consumers have been brainwashed and PURE LIED TO that lossy MP3 and iPod type sound is as good as even CD sound. So they accept it given no real test of reference to even a good CD sound let alone quality vinyl DVD-A, SACD. So the industry has cut its nose to spite itself (nothing new with the recording industry) and it will likely do the same if this DSD type format becomes a consumer format. It will cut its nose off again because it will price it too high for the general consumer to want to buy into.

The magic of vinyl regardless of it being a digital or an anlogue master is the used library world wide is MASSIVE! New vinyl is being made as a niche (GREAT!) and it has a sensation to it in ways digital media seems to lack.

As I said if a master is made of a great high-rez digital format and then cut a vinyl disc from it I'm 100% fine with it. If they make an affordable optical discs from it that can be easily played (not likely going to happen) then great too. But short of what will be a niche market even high-rez digital is in trouble today.

I appreciate you educating me some basics of DSD stuff you note and if it can capture and recreate the nuance of audio/sounds as a mastering format so that it is as good or better than the best analogue masters and can then be used to cut new vinyl from personally I WILL LOVE IT!!! because it requires me not to have to buy a new playback unit or whatever to hear it.

I've had both analog and digital in my stereo system concurrently since 1983. I prefer vinyl for high-end sound, but can enjoy cd's too. Some pieces of music have never been available on digital (usually orchestral or jazz from the classic era), and some more contemporary music has only been ava ilable on cd. The point I'd like to make is that I'd r ather see people sit down and listen to music and get themselves involved in it, understand it, do their homework about the artists and pieces, and truly enjoy it, no matter what the medium. To say that one medium is more modern, wont be around in the future,or is bandwidth-limited, misses the point, IMHO.--Mrmitch

Mrmitch,

You mirror much of how I feel on the topic.

Back in the early 80's I was getting into the hobby and of course the LP record reigned supreme for the consumer. I began to read up on digital though and the CD and was pulled into it by its hype and marketing. Yes it sounded different, it had a cleanliness to it and combined with the hype of telling us what we cannot hear (clicks and pops) we were told that it was Perfect Sound Forever. I have said here in earlier posts that I was hooked into digital not realising what I was losing in terms of vinyl. By the fall of '86 I had switched to CD's 100%. My old turntable and a few dozen LP's were boxed away and some even sold off.

It remained for me until just after Christmas 2002. I began to read online about vinyl and record players being made. I found my old JVC LA-11, vulcanised platter mat, bent Shure cartridge stylus, a slipping belt, and my remaining LP's. Hooked it up and cued up some Alan Parsons Projects. Um it was like being hit in the head with a book. I realised even with this wonky old setup was playing something I had not heard in 16 years.

Soon I had bought a new turntable in my case to wet my appetite it was a Music Hall mmf2.1 and began shopping thrift stores for used vinyl. Reading up online trying tweaks etc. and a rebirth to vinyl for me.

It was so revealing for me I had to then get a better CD player. Soon I had a new Cambridge Audio D-300se and even though it still lacked something compared to my vinyl rig it was close enough for me to still enjoy throwing in a CD when I wanted to.

You are correct some LP's are not available on CD and many CD's will never be made on vinyl. I was originally turned off my CD's once I got my mmf2.1 but the D-300se helped get me to accept CD's. Time and other tweaks along with just not getting to anal about it all has helped me see that hey a well made CD (sadly most made in the last 10 years suck in how they are recorded) can sound very good using decent gear. Some CD's are not much off an LP version and lets face facts not all of the millions of LP's pressed were well made. I have a few DOGS!

5 years down my rebirth into vinyl I kick myself for losing 16 years of its fun, feeling and sonic pleasure. But I can't change that now. I have really reshaped my mind into thinking more about that it is about the music and a good CD on a nice player can sound great. Yes, I prefer vinyl most of all, from the sound to the hunt of shopping thrift store and the ritual of playing vinyl. It is one of the best parts of this hobby BUT! I am more than happy to have and use CD's too. Recently after doing reading online I took an old PlayStation unit and did some tweaks to it and discovered that it can be tweaked into a decent ol' CD player. In fact I was happy and thrilled enough after I tweaked it out a bit to sell my D-300se to put that money into other electronic toys for my system. Honestly to me the PlayStation unit tweaked sounds almost analogue-like. The D-300se had a better overall sound but the PlayStation has a more precise sound and I like it. BTW tweaks include a full tear down and cleaning making sure all parts are cleaned, shielding is in place and a full flat black painting to help keep out stray light. I used differing materials to pad and dampen parts that can rub and resonate. I drilled out more holes for added cooling and for making home made spiked feet. I built a sprung iso platform to seat the unit and its spike feet onto and the spikes sit into brass plates. It truly sounds pleasant and it cost me next to nothing to tweak.

Anyways back to your point. I can enjoy good CD sound and good vinyl sound. As I said, I prefer vinyl first but am not averse to using my CD player. I to have taken it to bring back by buying a nice 3 head cassette deck into my system for the fun of cassette recordings. I have a stand alone Pioneer CD recorder and it is used to make digital copies of my fav LPs etc. but I wanted to return back to using a good cassette deck to make good analogue copies of some of my fav. vinyl. Along with having another source to playback the multitude of use cassettes at trifts too.

Now I can shop for vinyl first and foremost, CD's as a second choice and analogue cassettes as a third.

As time progresses for me it is about having pleasant sounding gear and maybe playing the upgrade game over time for each.