2. analog
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lps sound bad

I am finally listening to lps after going perhaps 20 years without, due to a recent (about 3 months) investment into a vinyl rig. I'm absolutely bummed that perhaps 30 to 40% of my collection really isn't worth playing due to sonic considerations.

I have an aproximate 2,000 lp collection, nearly all are new album, record show, or garage sale purchases dating from the early 70's thru the mid 80's. These are mostly all very well preserved, with minimal wear, dust pops, scratches etc. My problem is not with the shape or cleanliness of the records (they have been hand cleaned in accordance with 'expert' advice, then cleaned again in a VPI 16.5). Nor are they mistracked, none of that inner groove distortion.

It is also not a setup issue, cartridge setup is absolutely correct, and every other parameter of setup, from the wall shelves/isolation to power cords and ICs has had careful attention.

My issue is in the mastering and/or pressing of the lps. This 30 to 40% have issues, mostly with small soundstaging and/or lack of frequency extension, especially in the bass. They simply sound small scale and lightweight, like mid-fi to me. The other 60 to 70% of my collection sound relatively huge in comparison, large, airy soundstaging, transparent, dynamic, especially the micro dynamics.

Now, the vast majority of the 30 to 40% that sound small scale are what I believe to be, original pressings of 70's rock music. The rest, mostly 50's and 60's recordings from a huge variety of genres, sound wonderful, mostly way better than my digital.

I suspect what I'm hearing is excessive compression due to poor mastering and/or pressing. At this point I'm not sure whether the main culprit is mastering or pressings. As I previously mentioned, most of these recordings were purchased in the early 70's to mid 80's, thus, I believe they are original pressings, which leaves mastering as the culprit. On the other hand, I have digital remasters of a number of these rock recording, a small number sound larger scale than their lp counterparts, which leads me to suspect pressings in some cases.

From this, I extrapolate that mastering is the culprit in most cases. Furthermore, I believe the bad sounding lps sound bad because of solid state recording studio equipment. My 50's and 60's recordings nearly all sound big, large scale, some may not have the greatest frequency extension, especially in the highs, but they all are tonally and dimensionally full, some luciously so, in the midrange. These recordings come from the heyday of tube equipment, both in the recording studio and home audio.

I should add, I'm not trying to make a case of solid state recording studios being the sole culprit here, as a small percentage of my 70's rock recordings sound large scale and satisfying. Rather I think it is solid state done on the cheap, and with bad ears on the part of the producers and engineers that is at fault. The late 60's and early 70's had more than it's fair share of crappy solid state, and most producers and engineers didn't know the first thing about quality sound (as remains the case).

Still, it seems the 50's and 60's producers and engineers could do less harm to the sound, the tube recording equipment always had the relatively voluptuous midrange. And perhaps the tube home audio of the day let them hear at least a semblance of quality, so they tried to replicate that sound in the studio.

As things stand, I'm somewhat disappointed in vinyl at this point. I was hoping these 70's rock recordings would sound much better than their cd counterparts (remastered or not). 30 to 40% of my collection is basically throw away at this point, I don't care to go through all the hassles inherent in the playing of records that sound only as good or worse than their digital counterparts.

I'm now getting the itch to buy lps new, I'm just wondering if the newly minted rock lps of classic rock are worth buying. It seems the digital remasters I have are only marginally better, in most cases, over older digital pressings. I suspect the same will hold true for vinyl, the new remasters will only sound marginally better than my original pressings.

At this point, I'm basically writing off classic rock recordings on lp. While I know classic rock can sound good on lp, the small number of exceptions I've experienced leave me highly skeptical. Future purchases will be mostly limited to recordings (of all genres) prior to the 70's. Future classic rock purchases will be mostly in digital form, for any lp purchases I will have to rely on thumbs up by reviewers I trust. Contemporary recordings are problematic as well, sound quality is all over the place in the digital recording studios, it seems to be a crapshoot, have to rely on reviewers here as well.

Vinyl setup:
VPI Scoutmaster
JMW 10.5i tonearm
SDS
Dynavector 20XL
Cayin Phono-One
sns
sns OP
3,199 posts
 
No, I'm not saying I'm unhappy with vinyl per se, I am only unhappy with a certain number of classic rock lps. I love the sound on my 50's, vast majority of 60's and even some classic rock lps.

Yes, I probably do have higher expectations of vinyl than digital, thus, I am more bothered by sonic issues on lp vs. digital. And I'm sure some of my disappointment comes from a purely emotional reaction. I did grow up with this music, and always had the dream (now delusion) that it would sound better with a better system.

I also grew up listening to this music on what we would now think of as a highly romanticized system. Dynaco tube amps, pre, speakers, linn tt with ortofon cartridges. But even with this, I could hear the dogs, so I always knew they were there.

I know I will never be able to listen to the crap sounding albums in my system, and it doesn't bother me one bit to say that. I have plenty of good albums to listen to, and tons left to hear in my collection. I also love plenty of other music genres and other eras of music, finally there is always Better records and others selling good sounding classic rock lps. No, I have no problem with not playing crap sounding records.

And finally, it may seem odd to some of you, but I can take crap sound much more easily on my digital. Probably something about diminished expectation, psychological claptrap. Whatever, it works for me. I have tons of prog rock, classic rock, garage rock, and just plain way obscure music on digital I enjoy immensely. I am a music lover, first and foremost, its just that I have higher expectations with vinyl.

Perhaps I listen with a more jaundiced ear to vinyl, but when I hear good vinyl, I think to myself, why do I need to hear junk vinyl. In the end, I guess its all about perception (isn't it always), some see it like me, others can't figure it out.

To me, vinyl is where I can merge the analytical and music lover sides of me, quality sonics is required for this sort of listening. Listening to digital appeals only to the music lover side of me, I can turn off my analytical side and simply enjoy the music. The less work digital requires also plays into this, up to 80 minutes of uninterrupted music can be nirvanna for me, especially with the more conceptual works.
acee
11 posts
 
if i look at a record and there is more than your normal amount of music on each side "most of the time" it will lack bass and sound condensed the same for greatest hits and reissue because it seems that with each pressing the music get further away.
i also had the record dealer on carmine st in new york tell me that Beatles records often have what he called brittle vinyl.
i bought new issues of rubber soul and revolver and even though they sounded clear something was off.
thats when i read in fine print it was digitally remastered.-
why do i want a CD on vinyl?
that defeats the purpose.
ejlif's avatar
ejlif
1,370 posts
 
Not that you seem to interested in anyone's suggestions but I might offer that you would want to consider a better cartridge. You have a good one, but even the next step up in the Dynavector line is substantial. As one other poster mentioned he felt he heard the same problems you are hearing and it was the cart that was the problem. It seems like your opinion is in the minority here and maybe you should take a few of those records that sound so bad over to someone elses system and see if perhaps you have a problem in yours before you close the book on this.
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
As things stand, I'm somewhat disappointed in vinyl at this point. I was hoping these 70's rock recordings would sound much better than their cd counterparts (remastered or not). 30 to 40% of my collection is basically throw away at this point.
I started listening to LPs in the early '60s, and by the early '70s I had my first "real" stereo and by 1975-6 I was working in home audio shops. So I'm really familiar with the evolution of LPs through this period and the sound of mass market rock records in the mid-'70s.

The mid-'70s pop/rock records are probably some of the worst-sounding, the most compressed, and sometimes indifferently mastered. It was also the era of the worst vinyl when the first "gas crisis" enticed the record companies to use recycled vinyl to make new records. It was at the peak of the suits running the record lables as pure money machines.

This period only lasted a few years, and there are also many good-sounding LPs from this period. Outstanding examples include Supertramp and Steely Dan. It wasn't long before "virgin vinyl" became a big selling point for new records, and the LPs of the late '70s and '80s sounded great, such as The Cars, The Police, Men At Work, Huey Lewis, etc.

Even at that, however, I generally much prefer any pop/rock LP from the '70s over its CD counterpart.

What are some examples of bad-sounding classic rock you have trouble with?
sns OP
3,199 posts
 
Ejlif, what gives you the idea I'm not listening to other's suggestions? I am treating all ideas as credible, I simply hold fast to the idea that some lps sound like crap, it seems as if some refuse to acknowledge that.

Some have posted they can get past the poor sonics on some lps and live with it. I can totally understand that, I do the same with digital. On the other hand, some seem to trying to tell me that I shouldn't have bad sounding lps, there must be something wrong with my system or something. This, I don't get! Does every lp sound good in their system? If they do, I would surely like to hear their system, perhaps I can become enlightened.

I am simply defending my listening preferences, I do not wish to hear bad sounding lps. Take a worse case scenario, even if 40% of my records are unlistenable for me, 40% of 2,000 is 800, that still leaves me with 1,200 I can truly enjoy. I also doubt that 40% can be extrapolated to my entire collection, as I've purposely played the most suspect albums early on in this process.

Johnnyb, you agree with me there are many bad recordings from that era, thank you. This goes along with exactly what I've been saying all along. A certain percentage of classic rock era lps sound like crap. As to what percentage, that is still an open book.

Johnnyb, I mentioned in previous posts the offending lps. Just off the top of my head, I can add Eagles-Hotel California, one of the worst ever, Fairport Convention-Rising For the Moon, Bee Gees-2 Years On, one of the worst ever, Alice Cooper-Love it do Death, crapola.

The only real argument people should have with me is, my inability to listen to this stuff on vinyl, when I can on digital. Again, this is simply about perception, for psychogical reasons I can accept less on digital.

A recent post mentioned that every post about digital vs. vinyl turns into a war. I sort of feel like I'm in the middle of that war right now. I'm on both sides, I like digital for what it is, and analog for the best it can be, what's wrong with that?

I'm not being pedantic, I simply admit I can't listen to lousy vinyl. If saying some classic rock era lps sound like crap is being pedantic, then I guess I'm guilty on all counts.
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