best value - record cleaning machine

Jazdoc, Honestly, why is any of the VPI Machines only a decent value if you only just have a few records? Your statements I feel are misleading, and false in this regard.

Of course RCM's like the Loricraft are built better, and you pay considerably for it as well.

But the debate about which machine actually works better, without harm to the LP, I feel has been mucho overhyped, without any sound, and factual analysis to confirm this.

I do understand the principles of the Loricraft, understand that yes, picking up fluids takes much longer, as any of the VPI-Type machines with a Vacuum Wand Slot essentially remove fluids in just a literal few seconds, and are removed fully within two rotations.

I understand, that the Loricraft often does not entirely pick up fluids from the surface, and I wonder then how is this a benefit?

So, other than the noise factor of machines like the VPI, what else is its downside? Is it the belief that the VPI's Velvet Protective Strips re-contaminate a record's surface? Is it the contact of the Wand marring, and grinding dirt into the groove-surface? Have these opinions-assumptions actually been proven?

Or is it actually just a false pre-concieved thought without substantiated proof that it does?

I'd actually like to see someone do micro-analysis of both machines final results, using the same fluids, particularly a 3, or 4 step process like many use here with thier RCMs.

Testing be "ear" I feel can leave much to the imagination, just because one spends $3500+ on an RCM, are they perhaps hoodwinking themselves to believe that it "has' to do a better job because they shelled out all that money?

If I'm wrong about these thoughts, then I'm hoping somebody here puts me in my place, with some sound, technical answers. Mark

I want to say, to all, if my post sounded abrasive, trust me, I haven't intended such, and I think all you folks are a great bunch of people.

I'm certainly not implying that the VPI method is superior, or perhaps npt even inferior as well, but it is a different method of fluid removal, this I know.

I can understand the record cleaning philosophy of "do the least amount of harm", and that Loricraft's design principles hold high merit.

I do wonder though, just how "far down the ladder" the VPI method is by compariso,n by the use of good, proper cleaning techniques, high quality fluids-rinses, and application brushes?

I've suspected that there may indeed be very little to no difference, provided the cleaners are effectively doing thier jobs, and that proper rinses, and methods are used to insure no remaining residues, whether contaminants, or cleaners are left behind for the Stylus to see.

The only other possible detriment, that I previously mention in my last post, is what possible negative effects could the Velvet Protective Strips on Vacuum Wand cause?

If I've steered this thread from its original theme, please forgive me folks. But I do very much enjoy discussions such as this, which may provide better factual evidence, and beliefs, rather than saying something is better than another, yet without further explaining actually why? Mark

Frankly, based on my experience, I fail to see how the Loricraft or Monks can be considered a "high value" RCM but maybe I'm just a cheapskate. I paid $160 for a KAB EV1 3 years ago and have cleaned 2,500 records in the past 3 years with it. I doubt very much if I spent the price of a Loricraft to buy those 2,500 records and, although I've gotten rid of a lot of those, I'd say that 1,000 of them, though, remain in, and form the core of my collection. Many of the others were traded to dealers for other new and used vinyl.

I think cleaning technique and fluids have much more to do with obtaining a clean record than the RCM itself. Personally I don't like using stiff brushes or scrubbing records based on some bad experiences doing so; I use only carbon fibre brushes for wet cleaning and only Mo-Fi Super Deep (no SVW-I eliminated it a long time ago and feel it's a waste of money and a very poor final step) and ultrapure water combined with steaming in a 3 step process. I use a KAB EV1 combined with a high quality domestic vac with a junk turntable to apply fluids and steam on. Noisier, certainly than a Monks or a Loricraft, but it does the job, and as a manual unit I can do bi-directional vacuuming with it, something you cannot do with the automatic machines.

I've had records cleaned on a Monks before. Granted, the Monks and Loricraft are more sophisticated in terms of the vacuuming process, but they're also tweakier. I also don't think they clean a record any better; then again, I don't think the RCM actually does much to clean the record. I think that's a function of the fluid interacting and suspending dirt in the grooves so it can be vacuumed away.

You can listen to records while you clean with a Monks or Loricraft but you certainly won't be bringing a Monks out into the listening room everytime you want to clean records unless you want a hernia. Perhaps the Loricraft is lighter and more compact and easier to haul around.

I had a chance to buy an older, beat up Monks for $800 just before I purchased my KAB and didn't bother. It was going to need parts and work to get it going and I just wasn't up to the hassle. I don't regret the decision in the least and have no intentions of ever buying anything beyond the KAB. Yes, the automation might save me some time, but in the end I think Audiofeil makes a valid point about "manual" cleaning ultimately being more effective (and probably time consuming)-the automatic car wash analogy is an appropriate one I think.

As I said, maybe I'm just cheap. I drive a Toyota Camry SE; I'm sure the Lexus 350 is a better car on what is essentially the same platform. But to me the Lexus is not better value and I could afford it if I wanted to spring for it.

Another vote for the KAB EV-1 manual system. Hooked up to my Oreck canester vacuum, it does a fantastic job cleaning filthy records from shows and garage sales. I apply the fluid manually, and spread/scrub with the supplied brush. Hard to beat for the money, IMHO.

I like the idea of using my own vacuum with the Nitty Gritty design.

Where can one buy the KAB EV-1?