A Copernican View of the Turntable System

Hi Nick:

20 feet (from preamp to poweramp?) should be OK for preamps that have good output drive capability and low output impedance. With preamps of higher output impedance, you may encounter some high-frequency roll-off. This effect can be minimized by making sure that you use as low-capacitance interconnects as you can find. I think that Blue Jean Cables offers some interconnects which prioritize low capacitance.

IME, the acoustic problem from having big, acoustically reflective objects between the speakers is a bigger problem than needing to use long interconnects. Having big objects between the speakers really does mess up the soundstage and imaging big-time, with lesser (but still significant) damage inflicted on instrumental timbres and dynamics. If you absolutely must have your equipment rack between the speakers, I would try to get the rack and equipment as far behind the speaker baffles as possible, and get the equipment or rack's highest edge lower than the speakers' tweeters, preferably the midrange also.

If you can't disassemble your rack and reassemble it to get it lower, perhaps you could keep a thick blanket handy to throw over the rack and gear when the speakers are playing. This won't be as effective as opening up the space between the speakers, but it will give better results than doing nothing.

One more simple setup technique that I habitually use is to experiment with the rake angle of the speakers front baffle. Changing the rake angle of the front baffle will modify the time-alignment between midrange and treble (unless you use full-ranges), and can be used to alter the perceived height of the soundstage center, and the tonal balance. I find that most people seem to find the sound most comfortable if I adjust the speaker rake angle to bring the vertical center of the soundstage to approximately ear level.

Note that if the angle of the left and right speakers is different, you will introduce a height skew to the left and right sides of the soundstage. Making sure that the left and right speakers have identical vertical rake will give better imaging focus and soundstage depth.

hth, jonathan carr

You can quantify the difference by making a high-bit recording of your turntable without the speakers playing, and with speakers playing at your customary listening levels, and compare the two files. If you put the two files through a program such as DiffMaker by LIberty Instruments, it is possible to extract the difference component and listen to it as a distinct "distortion" track.

Not sure why you would want to do this?
Listening through a fine set of headphones with a great amp will remove all the room effects, the equipment positioning effects, the 'supposed' air-borne feedback effects as well as all conjectural problems regarding speakers.
When I listen through the Audeze LCD2 headphones through the Schiit Lyr headphone amp I hear no reduction in distortions compared to my speaker/room/equipment interface.Rather, through my speakers/room/equipment interface I hear exactly the same spectrum of sound quality as through the headphones with an added air, transparency, depth, bass impact, instrument positioning and emotional content.
There are no theoretical arguments which can turn 'black' into 'white'.
I don't doubt the experiences of others.......I expect the same respect for mine. :^)

Dgob, re: your comment from 9/14. Excellent point. This a never-ending problem in human communication. I have a BA in English, attained after the large scale introduction of postmodern theory in the late 60s and into the 70s. While meaning is ultimately fluid (Roland Barthes, Jacques Derrida) beyond the realm of the natural sciences (which themselves are subject to the need for definition of terms), it is still incumbent upon humanity to try and find common ground--acceptance of shared meaning--because our survival depends on it. The process of critical thinking, linked as it is to language and argumentation, is the only possible method we can use. Everything else falls into the category of faith, religion, ideology, etc. and we see the destructive ramifications of that on a daily basis. A far greater degree of universal consciousness (involving language, meaning, critical thinking) is needed, and I suspect it won't evolve into the human species in time. Not a pleasant thought but...

Dear Halcro, There is no such a thing as identity between two brains. I am astonished about those people who are searching for their identity. Every single one has already
his own. But the game in which you are involved is about
'who is right'? The premise of this game is however questionable. But than , logicaly, if the premise is not true than all the deductions from the premise can't be true also.
A Serbian suporter of an Slavic brother.

The only thing I am envious of in this hobby is the “room” and specifically in this priority order.

1) Dedicated room

2) Size of Room.

No matter what your room size – if you are an audiophile and you have a room to do with the gear and room what you desire, you will find appropriate gear and place them optimally in your room for you. I have seen and heard many “great size” rooms but the gear is placed to deal with the fact that it is a “shared” room. Even if your room is square and small, if you were free to place gear and speakers in it as you like – you will find your nirvana. I am not a fan of headphones personally. Have always enjoyed listening to groups, bands, performances. I want my ears to hear the effects of the surroundings. I am a music lover first, not someone involved with testing of a product that needs a certain type of “testing” environment. The differences between the two are black and white.

My room is not the best size room but it is a dedicated sound room (12 ft x 24 ft) built 12 years ago. Partial Basement Section, insulated for sound (walls and ceilings). Two separate power feeds into the room. I place gear wherever I want and trust me I have over 12 years. In fact I have placed my gear everywhere in that room just to hear the effects. This hobby to me is ONLY about what I hear.

It is clean for a picture if I am lucky once a year. I am frankly too embarrassed with the wires and “accessories” on the floor, the mess to post an overall pic.

My speakers are in nearfield. 9 ft from the front wall. 6 feet between centre of woofers. I sit close enough to touch them if I reach over – about 6 feet (1.5 – 1.8 metres). Except for the gear near the side wall there is 15 feet of open space behind my listening chair. Controls on my vintage Audio Research Sp11 MK II Pre Amp are never changed. It is run in Direct Bypass mode. No filters in use. Circuitry for Preamp controls are bypassed.

This setup I have found allows for good comparisons. I can hear subtle nuances very well – this setup IMO is better for this than a setup that allows for reflections to reach you. I have no problems posting impressions of what I actually hear. My ears don’t lie to me. I will not post based on theory only.

Also after over 2 months of listening, including a 115 + db level test with direct sound pressure and the resulting structure feedback, I went through the motions of trying to line up an ET 2.5 on the brass arm pod and the ET 2.0 on a 100 lb plinth as if being done for the first time. No alignment was required on either of them.

So as this being the Copernican thread - I will ask “again” for those that believe there is relative movement happening between the arm and spindle. Educate me. Teach me.

JCarr, Dover, Lew, Tbone, others ? I ask you to stop talking theory and prove this to me. Don’t use the word distortion. This is a kindergarten word for audiophiles. You can do better.

Prove to me what you are hearing or have heard with an armpod – provide me with the lp, track and the part in the song that demonstrates this theory. Otherwise its words out of your mouth and I listen with my ears.

BTW Dover did Halcro not pay your bar bill? Holy Cripes

I am currently listening to different drive systems. I am able to hear clear differences between all three of them. I will be posting the lp, track and part of the song that demonstrates this on my system page.
Also at a minimum if possible for those with an opinion - at least show us the speakers, phonostage, cables you are using so we can compare and improve our setup. Lay it out there.

It is more convincing and will keep this thread from going in circles. I agree with Dover in that regard.

I also have more respect if Manufacturers, dealers, distributors show a disclaimer. I will look to them first when buying as well.