A Copernican View of the Turntable System

Dgob, re: your comment from 9/14. Excellent point. This a never-ending problem in human communication. I have a BA in English, attained after the large scale introduction of postmodern theory in the late 60s and into the 70s. While meaning is ultimately fluid (Roland Barthes, Jacques Derrida) beyond the realm of the natural sciences (which themselves are subject to the need for definition of terms), it is still incumbent upon humanity to try and find common ground--acceptance of shared meaning--because our survival depends on it. The process of critical thinking, linked as it is to language and argumentation, is the only possible method we can use. Everything else falls into the category of faith, religion, ideology, etc. and we see the destructive ramifications of that on a daily basis. A far greater degree of universal consciousness (involving language, meaning, critical thinking) is needed, and I suspect it won't evolve into the human species in time. Not a pleasant thought but...

Dear Halcro, There is no such a thing as identity between two brains. I am astonished about those people who are searching for their identity. Every single one has already
his own. But the game in which you are involved is about
'who is right'? The premise of this game is however questionable. But than , logicaly, if the premise is not true than all the deductions from the premise can't be true also.
A Serbian suporter of an Slavic brother.

The only thing I am envious of in this hobby is the “room” and specifically in this priority order.

1) Dedicated room

2) Size of Room.

No matter what your room size – if you are an audiophile and you have a room to do with the gear and room what you desire, you will find appropriate gear and place them optimally in your room for you. I have seen and heard many “great size” rooms but the gear is placed to deal with the fact that it is a “shared” room. Even if your room is square and small, if you were free to place gear and speakers in it as you like – you will find your nirvana. I am not a fan of headphones personally. Have always enjoyed listening to groups, bands, performances. I want my ears to hear the effects of the surroundings. I am a music lover first, not someone involved with testing of a product that needs a certain type of “testing” environment. The differences between the two are black and white.

My room is not the best size room but it is a dedicated sound room (12 ft x 24 ft) built 12 years ago. Partial Basement Section, insulated for sound (walls and ceilings). Two separate power feeds into the room. I place gear wherever I want and trust me I have over 12 years. In fact I have placed my gear everywhere in that room just to hear the effects. This hobby to me is ONLY about what I hear.

It is clean for a picture if I am lucky once a year. I am frankly too embarrassed with the wires and “accessories” on the floor, the mess to post an overall pic.

My speakers are in nearfield. 9 ft from the front wall. 6 feet between centre of woofers. I sit close enough to touch them if I reach over – about 6 feet (1.5 – 1.8 metres). Except for the gear near the side wall there is 15 feet of open space behind my listening chair. Controls on my vintage Audio Research Sp11 MK II Pre Amp are never changed. It is run in Direct Bypass mode. No filters in use. Circuitry for Preamp controls are bypassed.

This setup I have found allows for good comparisons. I can hear subtle nuances very well – this setup IMO is better for this than a setup that allows for reflections to reach you. I have no problems posting impressions of what I actually hear. My ears don’t lie to me. I will not post based on theory only.

Also after over 2 months of listening, including a 115 + db level test with direct sound pressure and the resulting structure feedback, I went through the motions of trying to line up an ET 2.5 on the brass arm pod and the ET 2.0 on a 100 lb plinth as if being done for the first time. No alignment was required on either of them.

So as this being the Copernican thread - I will ask “again” for those that believe there is relative movement happening between the arm and spindle. Educate me. Teach me.

JCarr, Dover, Lew, Tbone, others ? I ask you to stop talking theory and prove this to me. Don’t use the word distortion. This is a kindergarten word for audiophiles. You can do better.

Prove to me what you are hearing or have heard with an armpod – provide me with the lp, track and the part in the song that demonstrates this theory. Otherwise its words out of your mouth and I listen with my ears.

BTW Dover did Halcro not pay your bar bill? Holy Cripes

I am currently listening to different drive systems. I am able to hear clear differences between all three of them. I will be posting the lp, track and part of the song that demonstrates this on my system page.
Also at a minimum if possible for those with an opinion - at least show us the speakers, phonostage, cables you are using so we can compare and improve our setup. Lay it out there.

It is more convincing and will keep this thread from going in circles. I agree with Dover in that regard.

I also have more respect if Manufacturers, dealers, distributors show a disclaimer. I will look to them first when buying as well.

Dear Halcro:

I have a pair of HD800s, and a pair of K1000s. And a hand-selected pair of Stax Lambda Signature Pros. However, I don't particularly enjoy the physical sensation of listening to headphones in general. I agree with you that headphones remove room and speaker artifacts, however they introduce other artifacts and sensations of their own.

>There are no theoretical arguments which can turn 'black' into 'white'.

At least my arguments haven't been merely theoretical. I have had a variety of experiences, and performed a variety of experiments with armpods, over a timespan of perhaps 30 years. But I will concur that when it comes to subjective preferences, there is no "right" nor "wrong". You are free to choose anything that you want to.

>I don't doubt the experiences of others.......I expect the same respect for mine. :^)

I may wonder aloud at how you conducted your experiments, or your controls, or your conclusions, but in no way does that mean that I don't give you a lot of credit for having performed hands-on experimentation. For that you have my full respect.

Ct0517: there is an aggressive, threatening undertone to your post that certainly doesn't encourage constructive replies. All that I can say is that, do feel free to listen to anything that you think sounds best. You don't need anyone's approval nor permission to listen to what you like best.

FWIW, I don't manufacture turntables. Nor do I distribute them (although in previous years I have been involved in distribution and setup for turntable manufacturers that included both integrated armboard and separate arm-pod models in their lineup).

I normally try and have tried in this thread to not hide the fact that I am an audio manufacturer - am I supposed to add "Manufacturer disclaimer" to each and every one of my posts?

My impression so far has been that most manufacturers are quite enthusiastic about audio on a personal level - we collect gear from other manufacturers and historical periods, experiment a lot with setup, have lots of albums, go to concerts frequently, and generally enjoy listening to music. And in my own case, when I hear a piece of gear or a type of design that I think is worthy (including sounding good), if presented the chance to give it credit in public, I will happily do so.

Over and out, jonathan

Dear Halcro, I gotta love ya, but you wrote, "through my speakers/room/equipment interface I hear exactly the same spectrum of sound quality as through the headphones with an added air, transparency, depth, bass impact, instrument positioning and emotional content."

I submit that this is impossible. Both can be superb, but the two systems can never sound exactly alike.

I have been away for a while and I intend to stay quiet in future, but after reading the last few weeks of posts, it seems to me that the Copernicans not only want their view to be "acceptable' but also for the non-Copernicans to say "uncle". I have written many times that I am quite certain your respective systems can sound excellent, but please don't think that makes you "right" and the rest of us "wrong". In turn, I will continue to say that I don't think any of you are wrong, either. (Ct, if your tonearm did not move, it did not move. OK?)

If I were going to implement an outboard arm pod there would be certain ways that I would do it. As an illustration, I like the DaVinci approach, sans the gaudiness of that turntable. Note that the Da Vinci armpod, motor pod, and platter pod are all made exactly the same way, of the same materials, and use identical footers. Plus Da Vinci recommends that they all should sit on a specific surface atop a specific stand (available for a mere $40,000 extra).

Dear JC, You are being too generous to say that Henry or any of the rest of us have conducted an "experiment" in the true meaning of the word.