SACD vs ANALOG

I'm not sure my problems with digital sound are the same ones that plague other audiophiles. I say this because of glowing reports regarding some CDs that I find unlistenable.(The Telarc "German Requiem" is a prime example: Although widely used by some reviewers as a standard when evaluating equipment, I simply can't listen to it beyond about the first minute because of the accompanying noise---like a worn out stylus on an LP, or overmodulated signals on radio.)

In short, are we all talking about the same "deficiencies" when CDs are criticized?

What I find objectionable is an overriding "noise" that accompanies massed voices, violins, trumpets----any other instruments in that same range of frequencies----in protracted passages. Short sounds are not that noticeable, except for an extra artificial "crispness" on leading edges. It's hard to describe what I hear, but I know it's not supposed to be there, and it's not a consequence of my system.

An analogy that comes to mind is particularly true of violins in their upper registers: I'm reminded of looking at stars which appear to "twinkle". Violins on a digital recording tend to twinkle, but in an auditory manner, if you get my drift. Other times I can visual the fiddles being played using hand saws! Gadzooks! The basic problem is that, once noticed, it's difficult to get the notion out of one's head.

I was somewhat heartened by recent praise of SACD, and in particular by the encouraging fact that SACD machines are dropping in price, with the new Sony 9000ES as a good example, with cheaper models supposedly to be introduced this summer(?). Buoyed by this news, I recently visited an audio "salon" to audition the Sony, only to discover that the only classical disc they had was one of Glenn Gould at the piano (Is this, perhaps, the handwriting on the wall as to what's heading where?) -----I have no problem with an ordinary CD of piano! I was unable, therefore, to determine whether or not SACD is the answer to my prayers.
I have since bought three SACD hybrids---to cover me for now, perhaps to be used on "the next great thing" ("MORE perfect sound forever, AND BEYOND"? Shades of "Animal Farm"! heh,heh) if/when I decide to go that route. One of the three is the Water Lily Acoustics "Nature's Realm", which has been widely praised in all of the audio rags as the greatest thing since perforated-toilet-paper-on-a- roll, and yet I hear the same noise, albeit, of course, when played on my lowly Wadia 830. Does the noise go away when it's played on a proper SACD machine? I guess I'll have to schlepp over to the same "salon" and give it a proper hearing on the Sony. I strongly suspect I'll hear the same noise, however. From what I've read lately, SACD's biggest contribution is extended frequency response----or am I missing other attributes? Is the hand saw truly replaced by a proper bow? Do the violins no longer twinkle? Does the midrange no longer sound like a jackhammer? I tell you, it's gonna hafta be a BIG change to convince me that SACD is truly better. If it's not, I'm betwixt de Debill and da deep blue sea, because there's not much selection in new analog recordings, and I find most of the remastered LPs rather disappointing, both from the standpoint of dated performances, really not that great sonically. I've already reduced most of my listening to works involving small chamber orchestras and string/piano trios, quartets, quintets, etc., which I can enjoy on good CDs. (I must say, however, that I've also truly enjoyed the hybrid disc of Stokowski's "River/Plow That Broke the Plains", on Vanguard. I don't remember Vanguard being that good back in the '50s/'60s!. Maybe there is more tolerable stuff out there, but how does one know, prior to actually making a purchase? I learned long ago that reviewers can't be trusted. I strongly suspect they don't listen to half the stuff they "review", merely feeding off each others' "reviews", or paying off a debt of some sort (free review copies, anyone?)! (A good example in recent memory was an Everest CD of Stravinsky's "L'Histoire du Soldat", praised in "Fi" as I recall. Although it's one of my favorites, the only recording I then had was an old mono LP. So, as a result of the review, I bought the CD, only to discover that it starts in midstream!----an entire phrase was omitted from one of the movements!

I've made modest improvements in my analog equipment, because I'm up in the air regarding where this will all shake out. I'd like to think that SACD, if really good, will win out over DVD-A. Since I'm almost exclusively into classical music, I shudder to think what will happen to the already-meager selection of classical repertoire if DVD-A wins out. I get the feeling that scheme will concentrate on HT and youth-orientated pap.

I'd be very interested in hearing comments from others. Are we all in this together, or am I hearing some objectionable stuff exclusively through my ears alone?
Jim

914nut, you have a dual layer disc so you are hearing the conventional "cd" layer when played on the Wadia.(nice player by the way) Take the disc and demo it at your retailer, let us know what you think.

I am fully aware of the dual layer concept, and I realize I am hearing a conventional CD when played on the Wadia---I didn't just fall off a beet cart, heh,heh! Please re-read my initial post.

My point is that it's hard to believe the WLA sound will be sufficiently improved as a SACD, since it's pretty dreadful to start with, at least to my ears. BTW---that particular disc was auditioned by R.E. Greene (as one of his "Recommended Recordings") in all three digital forms in TAS, with brief comments in issue 124, with a detailed review promised in a future issue.(Nothing has appeared in later issues. As with many things promised by TAS, I'll believe it when I see it!) His initial reaction was that DVD is superior. He found some "high frequency anomalies" (wonder if that's what I'm hearing as an ordinary CD as well?) in the SACD version.
Stay tuned.
Jim

It's true that extended frequency response is a (the?) main attribute of SACD. However, even playing SACD from my 9000ES into my Rotel 985 pre/pro (which immediately converts the analog signal to a 48K/24bit digital signal, processes it, and then reconverts it to analog) which probably doesn't have frequency response beyond 22K, I experience greater definition and smoother transits with SACD recordings than with CD.
-
IMHO, it's better to sample music 2.8 million times/second than 44K or 96K times per second--even when the signal is converted to 48K sampling. The CD was developed about the same year as the original IBM PC. I think it's time for a change.

P.S. I'm studying options to keep the SACD signal analog on my system.

914nut--your post raised many interesting points, some of which I'll try to address. Your short question was if we're talking about the same deficiencies of CDs. My experience, having listened to SACDs for the past four months, is that SACD offers the following principal improvements over what I consider deficiencies in CDs:

1. Strings and high frequency instruments and ambience are much smoother and more natural. CD sound in this area has always been hashy, rough and harmonically thin to me; while perhaps there is more energy apparent on CD, it has been rough and artificial. Best example I can give is to listen to the 3rd movement of the Delos recording of the Mahler 2nd, both CD and SACD layers; the difference in the strings at the start of the movement is obvious and much better on the SACD layer.

2. On SACD, piano is much richer harmonically. If you compare a good piano recording on SACD (try Periah's Goldberg Variations on Sony) to a normal CD (save perhaps for the VAI reissues or good analog transfers) the CD will sound thin and brittle in comparison.

3. Dynamics--SACD makes CD sound compressed dynamically.

4. Openness--it's tough to describe, but there is an ease and openness to SACD which rivals good analog. CD sounds to me like it's in a box, albeit, on good CD recordings, a very large box perhaps. SACD removes that box.

I'm not sure if these are the problems you have with CD. While I too have not been that impressed with the Telarc Brahms German Requiem disc, feeling it sounds "muddy" or congested, part of that stems from a 200 voice chorus, Brahms' rich scoring and the hall, as well as perhaps Telarc's early bass-heavy tonal balance. I don't know if that's your overriding "noise". Have you tried the recent Reference Recordings discs with the Minnesota Orchestra (Mephisto & Co., Bernstein, Copland, or Bolero)? I hear very little of what bothers me on the Telarc disc on these recordings. Your "twinkle" with violins might sound better as noted in point 1 above, although part of the problem may lie with close miking of the instruments, at least with solo instruments.

Your point on remastered LPs being disappointing, however, makes me wonder if you'll ultimately like SACD. I've found the Classic, Testament and Speakers Corner reissues, on the whole, to be excellent, but clearly different from the originals in that they are closer to the master tape and have less of the warmth (and lack of focus) of the originals. I was stunned at how close the SACD and Classic Records reissue of the Bruno Walter Brahms Fourth sounded to each other. You will NOT get the warmth of vinyl on SACD. You WILL get closer to the sound of the master tape, but with older or poorly made recordings this may turn into a mixed blessing and you may not like it.

I'd suggest a couple of SACDs--the Vanguard you mentioned (the problem with Vanguard's vinyl stemmed in part from their pressings), the Hyperion SACD of the Floristan Trio playing Faure and Debussy, and the Delos Mahler 2 referred to earlier, all hybrid discs. I have found all three to be excellent recordings, and good illustrations of the differences in the formats. If you live in the NYC tri-state area, I invite you to hear them at my home if you'd like (not everyone demos with these recordings). If you continue to be bothered by them, unless your system is a partial culprit (the Wadia sure isn't, it's a fine player) I'm not sure that SACD or 24/96 digital will be the answer to your prayers. Sorry for the length of this post (and I hope the spacing works like I typed it, or it may look funny), but you asked some interesting questions that got me to thinking. Hope this helps in some way.