"Trickle up" theory

I am borderline shocked that you'd think there is anyone left on this site who is not thoroughly aware of your position with respect to this subject, John. :-)

Now, don't get me wrong. I am all for DIY stuff (I have a few myself) and am all for a bargain. I will take equal performace for a dime instead of a dollar most any day.

Certainly there are high-end components with high-end prices that talk a better talk than the walk they walk. On the other hand, casting a net over most of the lot is also a disservice. Just as it is wrong to say that all (or even most) low or moderately priced equipment is junk, so is it wrong to say that all (or even most) equipment which most of us cannot afford is over priced or "sterile". As much as I would hate to have someone look down their collective snout at me for having a 70's Sony tuner which performs as well as some much higher priced tuners, so do I hate the inference that I was stupid or foolish to lay out a grand-and-a-half for my Spacedeck instead of cobbling together, say, an old Lenco.

The idea that most lower end equipment provides better musicality than high end stuff is clearly a matter of debate - and based on VERY SUBJECTIVE impressions, to boot. While I have not owned equipment that is in the price stratosphere as many on this site, I have owned a TON of stuff ranging from a low-budget Rotel amp to a $2.7K McCormack amp. I can't share your impression that the McCormack could take lessons from the Rotel. :-)

If folks want to spend as I have or thousands more, who cares? As long as THEY are happy, big deal. It is their money. Doubt you'll sway many on this site who don't already share your views, anyway. :-)

Drubin, I have to admit that I am an admirer of Art Dudley! He definitely had a point, and he was entertaining and fun. I will mourn Listener magazine to the end of time, but thank God Art's still writing!

4yanx, this is a "discussion forum" and what's the point if most or nearly all of the time answers given involve that tired old horse spend more money, get on the "inevitable upgrade path" blah blah blah? Or if we avoid discussions? It's not all meant to be simple answers to simple questions, is it? Galileo challenged the science of his time, and science advanced. Now I am not Galileo, but I can share in a bit of his spirit. Can't we be more creative, try different technologies, different angles? Timing is information which is actually more important to the music than all of the rest of the audiophile goodies combined: check sheet music, the music lies in the beats between the notes, tempos, pauses... It seems to me, as it has to many audio reviewers, that a lot of equipment is being designed by businessmen who see an opportunity, but either have no love of music, or don't understand it. There's no substitute for talent, an engineering degree is not enough. I'm serious when I write that many audio designers need to look at the issue of timing, and sincere in wanting to advance the art. Your input is part of a discussion. While I seem to be the most vocal one carrying this particular torch on this site, many here agree with me, as you noted. I am trying to draw them out, as they seem to be relegated to the sidelines. By the way, your Spadedeck story explains a lot. I never named any particular 'tables, I made an effort to avoid the issue of idler-wheel drive vs belt-drive, I invited those with money in their decks to join in. I'm also putting my money where my mouth is. If I'm full of crap, then those who build these Lencos for $200 plus a Rega arm will let you all know. I throw down the gauntlet. Remember the Dynaco amps, or the LS3/5A kits (still one of the best speakers ever made)? I simply tried to inject a little bit of fun back into this hobby, as well as restore a measure of sanity: $2500 cartridges called "good for the money" or "a bargain" indeed! I anticipated your type when I wrote "Now there are those who have spent lots of dosh on their tables, and those who plan on spending lots of dosh on their 'tables, who will tell you this project is no good, that the Lencos are no good, that idler wheel-drives are no good, etc. Don't believe them. I will not make a dime doing this for you, which will actually cost me some money and time and effort. I'm doing this to restore some measure of fun to the hobby, as well as further the art of music reproduction. Is spending $5000 fun? No. Conversely, there are those again with expensive set-ups who will want to join in in a spirit of fun and experimentation, the heart of this hobby of ours, and they are welcome, and I hope to get some input from these as well as everyone involved." Strangely enough, those who've signed up or are planning on signing up have expensive systems, with expensive analogue rigs. Consider this. I am on record praising the AR 'tables (which are timing champions), I have given advice to the effect of buying Sotas, and have been on record writing to someone who loves Thorens to keep buying Thorens. I keep an open mind, and don't believe detail is everything, which is why I love my modded AR-XA as well. For those who don't want to go to the trouble of building a great big marbled deck, I suggest the AR-XA, a belt-driven 'table which shines when you mount a better arm on it. Simply remove the tonearm, take a hacksaw and cut off the cast arm-bearing from the subchassis, stick a stone bit in a drill into the remaining hole and grind away until you can fit a Rega arm in the hole. Cut an armboard (you will have to take a saw and cut a hole in the upper metal plate where the arm emerges) from hardwood (not oak) or acrylic or Corian, and mount Rega. Presto, killer belt-driven 'table, killer timing, excellent isolation. No prejudice here.

My theory on why some high-end equipment doesn't "get the music right" has nothing to do with the equipment itself, but where that equipment is located.

Rarely have I seen high-end equipment located in an environment that is truely comfortable. I mean, high-end equipment is expensive, and is usually arranged to be shown off. Surrounded by equally exquisite furniture. Set up for a "sweet spot". Perfect. Stuffy. Boring.

But take my friend "Jeff". Jeff is still using the same Technics turntable, Boston Acoustic speakers, and Onkyo receiver that I helped him pick out in High School ('87 I believe). His system is set up in the corner of his unfinished basement. His speakers are asymetrically arranged up on cinder blocks (there is no "sweet spot"). His speaker cable is about the thickness of dental floss. He's got a couple of thrift store chairs set up in no particularly way. I think there is a lamp, but I know there is always incense burning and a longneck Budweiser being offered. Matter of fact, his foam baffles are cracking on his speakers. But...

I can listen to music on his system for hours without wondering if the soundstage is too forward, if the amp is tranparent enough, or if he would be better served by a seperate DAC and transport rather than the $90 Sony CD player he's using.

The only thing that goes through my mind are things like, "Damn...that Neil Young LP is amazing!!!" and "You're right...they do sound influenced by the Velvet Underground."

Maybe we need to listen to more music while lying on the floor, studying the LP cover like we used to "back in the day." Grab some cinder blocks. Time to run down to the 7-11 to grab a 6-er of Bud.

Great post, Nrenter. Why do you think it is that you have that experience at Jeff's? And do you ever have it at your place?

Tried to be somewhat light-spirited and “jestful” while still making what I consider a salient point and tried to indicate so by placing several :-)’s but you’ve obviously taken things very personally given your personally pointed response. As such, I will say:

1) I'll wager you've never heard a Spacedeck. Clearly you haven't based on your discussion of "timing" which the 'Nots do exceedingly well (try timing one), while I have heard more than one Lenco.

2) You've made a point to avoid the belt-drive vs. idler wheel-drive debate? Please.

3) When you say the following "I anticipated your type when I wrote ..", you really say it all and expose yourself fully.

My type? - you don't have a clue what my "type" is, especially based on the little I've written here regarding stuff I've built (successes and failures). I may well have begun in this hobby before you were a glimmer and may well have put together more lower priced table and arm combos in my day than you can imagine. But, you'll never truly find out since you’ve already determined "my type". If you ever saw the stuff in my music room you'd quickly realize just how off-base you are. Is my Spacedeck, end all? Certainly not. Could its performance be approached by something cheaper? Always the possibility. OTOH, it gives me the performance I love at a price I think is reasonable and it doesn’t force me back to my days of fiddle farting around, which I don’t have the desire to do anymore. Having done so myself I would never discount anyone's ambition to do such, so please spare me your “stifling creativity” or “thwarting discussion” theory. While I encourage those with the inclination to tinker to go for it, I take umbrage at being denigrated for not doing so.

Have fun with your Lenco projects. I truly hope that these things work out for you and for others and that you will gain immense pleasure in listening to the music and gaining an added satisfaction of having built something yourself (perhaps many for the first time). In the end, however, it is ALL about the satisfaction derived - whether you've spent $50 or $5000. If you can get your kicks having spent less, fine, feel free to wear a smug smile, just don’t expect everyone to notice. End-o-rant! ;-)