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SACD my thoughts at this time.....................

I have been on other threads accused of being consistantly negative on SACD as a format.
I'll put my full thoughts on the format here so those members with differing views can express their issues with my opinions.
Hopefully it can be archived and new posters can be directed to this thread.
I also don't claim to know all the answers so others can offer more information or contradictory evidence.

It's long been my contention SACD will probably survive as a niche Audiophille format.
I do not see it breaking into the mainstream nor do I see a time when the majority of releases make it onto SACD.
Of course I could be totally wrong and this is guesswork at this stage in the game.

Also as a music nut with an interest in audio replay I do not rule out further down the line owning a main replay machine that gives me SACD capability to go along with my higher end Redbook capability at this stage.

I'll break my points into main headings.

1.SOFTWARE QUALITY AND LACK OF NEW RELEASES/NEW MUSIC.
Clearly the number of SACD's available are increasing but is it enough?
Sales have risen also.
My opinion is that the large rise in sales is related directly to the large reissue sets of Dylan,The Stones,The Police and the mega-selling DSOTM by Pink Floyd.
These hybrid releases will tie in strongly with my argument on my second and sixth headings.
But the success of these releases lies in their ability to be played in most CD players.
Even pro-SACD members do seem at times to be worried by the quality of some SACD remasters or releases.
A major boo boo in trying to break the format.
Most importantly for me also is the close to complete lack of releases that are new and indeed non-Audiophile related.
Surely another boo boo.
The movement on software in general terms has been too slow.
Whilst no doubt some will cite CD quality and early problems however SACD does not offer the new intial convienance over vinyl CD did.

2.CHEAP MACHINE SYNDROME.
I bought my DVPSN900 on the reviews stating that it was a good audio machine as well which highlighted SACD superiority over Redbook.
It is but the difference between the Redbook and SACD replay is not noticeable to my ears nor others who have heard it.
Surely this is catastrophic for the format?
A dip in the water buying machines such as these will leave potential SACD progressive adopters unimpressed.
Sony has clearly introduced many cheaper SACD players over the last few years.

3.AVAILABILITY OF PLAYERS.
This one will sound daft to most Americans but when I was considering a higher end SACD machine to hear,there was nothing in my price range available in Glasgow,a major city in the UK and probably the biggest hi-fi city outside of London.
None of the big Audio stockists in the city have had much success in selling players.
I wouldn't doubt in a lot of European cities this is similar.
I've also not heard a single UK dealer rave about the format,maybe for the same reasons,my local dealer constantly turns down SCD-1's for trade in because he's had difficulty moving them.
American Audiophiles maybe don't realise that their market is a lot more vibrant despite the economic gloom.
Seems here in the UK after the intial burst of SACD there is a large gap in the availability market which hasn't been filled.

4.NEW PLAYERS
Outside the elite world of the likes of Emm Labs etc it seems the new players have been indifferent.
Doesn't the mediocre reviews/feedback of such big boys as Linn and Krell not bring another problem.
This month's Hi-fi+ reviews the new Classe Omega (£12K!)and describes it's Redbook playback as mediocre.
Shouldn't we by this stage seeing the technology drift down and be wowed by the new players?
Will the new Sony make a difference?
5.OTHER FORMATS
Clearly another big issue is the likes of DVDA.
With new generations adopting different types of software,is there any place for SACD?
Even the humble CD seems to have a reasonable future at this stage purely as the dominant format to buy new music on.
Of course it too is under threat but does anybody really think SACD will bypass CD?
6.HYBRID DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD.
Imagine you are reasonably interested in sonic reproduction but have a moderate to low-end system and you've just bought a newly remastered SACD hybrid of some classic.
If you notice a big jump in the CD quality will that intrigue you on SACD quality or will you think I'm not going to spend x$ on a new SACD player when I'm getting benefits where I am.
If you read a bit about it you might consider those who have heard the differences on older recordings to be very slight.
SACD worth the investment?

7.REDBOOK QUALITY ON SACD PLAYER.
Is this an issue?
I think this is key where Audiophiles are concerned.
Will a $3k SACD machine match a Redbook only player in Redbook replay.
It was this issue which ultimately led me away from trying to kill two birds with one stone.
A problem for me here in here the UK but what about in America where the overall selection is better?

8.COMBINATION EFFECT
It's my contention that SACD has too many different issues and unknowns at this stage to make anyone think that it's future is certain.
I'm sure I will hear a lot about Sony's investment and their copyright worries but will that matter if the format does not sell or grow sales?

Let's here your views-those who await further developments before investing in SACD,those who have early adopted and got out of the format and those who love it,embrace and believe it has a long future.
ben_campbell
drrdiamond
671 posts
 
Several more "boo boos":

1. Often a new recording will be release on CD, and then a few months later on SACD. I am now nervous to buy new releases in fear that it will soon be released in a better format.

2. One of the real beauties of the SACD format is that it is backward compatable. If the big record lables came out with many hybrid discs at a reasonable cost, than mainstream would buy them, only later to realise that they owned a lot of SACD's, and would consider purchasing a new player. Instead, many of the releases are SACD only, or if in Hybrid, very expensive.

3. Labeling: Why do the manufacturers insist on such poor identification of the format. (The Stones series doesn't say anything about the SACD format.) I have some discs that are SACD only, but other than a SMALL symbol, it is impossible to tell that it is an SACD. I pitty the poor schmuck that buys them with only a CD player at home.

I have a very large CD collection with most of the titles that I want. Over the last couple of years, my purchasing of CD's has really dropped off. With the new SACD format, I am again buying more discs, but the releases that I want a few and far between.
I agree that the SACD format will stick around for the audiophiles amoung us, but the manufacturers have blown the marketing of it as a big seller. .. both as a medium and as hardware.
Oh, and by the way, the sound of the SACD, is definitely superior to the CD! ... and my SACD player surpassed any CD player in it's price range and beyond.

As I see it,
Richard
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Restating my opinion...the bigest problem with SACD is the existance of DVD-A. With a well-made disc and a good player SACD is better than a CD. But the same can be said for DVD-A, which shares technology with the mass market for DVD-V, and represents a simple straightforward correction of the marginal resolution and data rate of the CD, (not to mention the flexibility to do multichannel and even higher resolution 2-channel, and some video.) If DVD_A did not exist the success of SACD would be certain. But in this real world, I doubt that it can long survive.
elgordo
530 posts
 
Reminds me of Super VHS. "What VHS should have been in the first place, yada, yada, yada". And of course VHS had won out over the superior Beta format, which is much like DVD-A in this comparison. I bought into the SVHS format, albeit late, only because the price of SVHS camcorders and SVHS decks had dropped way down in price. But the format never caught on. Now camcorders have built in DVD burners so all video tape machines are on their way out the door. Just like SACD will win out over DVD-A but will never become mainstream. Just like Ben says. And for all the reasons Ben lists. I'll stick with my Theta redbook CD playing frontend thank you. Great post Ben.
aball
2,016 posts
 
Good reading! I have noticed lately that there are fewer and fewer DVD-A sightings, whether advertisements or players. SACD seems to be winning but I think it will only be successful as a niche market. Whenever I mention SACD to my non-hifi buddies, they don't even know what I am talking about. I casually test everyone I know and I have yet to have one person be familiar with the new format "wars." I think that puts it into perspective. Anyway, enjoyed the posts. Arthur
nrchy's avatar
nrchy
2,124 posts
 
Ben, as you pointed out; your situation is a little unique based on your location.

I live in a fairly small community but was able to buy my SCD 777es locally without any trouble. There are at least three major music store who sell SACDs.

To respond to you experiences:
1) I have not found (with my CDP anyway) that the two formats are virtually indistinguishable. There have been occasions when I would have prefered the difference to be more obvious, but in my experience (and those for whom I have auditioned the two) SACD does sound better than redbook CD.

One big problem with sound quality may be similar to what we experienced when the first CDPs were foisted upon us us, in the rush to release material, the record companies never learned to use the technology. CDs one may purchase now are much better than CDs available in 1983.

When manufacturers learn how to better use SACD the recordings will sound better. There is going to be a learning curve.

2) I'm not familiar with your CDP, but the quality of the payback machine is always going to be a huge issue. I know Sony has lots of lesser quality machines on the market, but I doubt that those machines will do anything for the sale of SACDs. I'm not denegrating your CDP, I'm just saying that the payback unit has to be of sufficient quality to recognize the potential of the format.

3) If I knew of a retailer who was turning down SCD-1's because of their inability to resell them, I would be in his shop right now telling him to snag the next on, and that I would take it.

4) I'm surprised by the poor reviews of some of the supposedly better (Krell, Linn) and newer units. Just because they did not do justice to their own units is not the fault of the format! Or is it!?!

5) I watched the format wars for a while, and I don't think DVD-A is going to be the winner between these two, so I voted with my wallet.

6) Where would any of us be if no one had bought CDPs in the eighties. The format was poor, and did not deserve to survive. The record companies knew it, so they did not give us a choice. The destroyed all the vinyl and the only choice we had was to buy CDs. I will readily admit that I prefer to listen to vinyl, but some of the things I want are too hard to find. If I want to have it, I have to buy it in digital.

7) Redbook playback on my SCD 777es is as good as the CDPs I have had before (Magnavox CDB 650, California Audio Labs Icon mk II, and Nakamichi ?) These are not as good as the very best CDPs available obviously, but even some of the best SACD players cost a lot less than them, so what is a poor audiophile to do???

8) I'm not usre how to respond to this comment, but in the long run what difference does it make to me. I can't control it, so while I can, I will continue to buy SACDs since the better SACDPs are close in quality to what vinyl can do.

Only audiohiles will be able to control the success or failure of newer, higher resolution digital formats. The masses will continue to feed off of whatever boob they're instructed to, so if any of us want something better than redbook quality digital, MAKE IT HAPPEN! If not, stay on the sidelines and let the masses decide for you. But ask yourself if you would be happy with your system if the masses were the ones who determined what kind of amp, speakers, or cable you owned!
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