Avantgarde's are Great but Bass Integration?


I just back yesterday from an extensive audition of the Avantgarde Uno and Duo horn speakers. In a word, jaw dropping incredible speakers but .......I never felt really comfortable that the bass integration was going to get quite where it needs to be. Too much bass, too little, slight to noticeable bass to mids transition etc. We changed the settings on the subwoofer, moved the massive Duo's around, which actually was not hard given how the speaker is designed, changing setting positions etc. This speaker more than any other I have heard conveys a "you are there", "organic", and "pure oceans of spatial dimension" qualities in the all important, for my musical tastes, midrange and up. These speakers are so good that once we got things very close to being there with the bass I was convinced that anybody considering speakers, no matter, how little or how much you spend really need to hear how a speaker can take you to another world given a good recording.

What has been others experience with this phenomenial speaker especially in the area of bass quality and integration with the rest of the system?
nanderson
The Avantgarde Duo's are a very well thought-out design, but like all speakers embody compromises.

You see, it's not possible to build a reasonably compact woofer that goes deep, has high efficiency, and matches the radiation pattern of the horns. Not even close!

Avantgarde has opted for a fairly compact woofer that goes deep, which is probably the best decision, and provided a separate power amp and plenty of flexibility in the controls for dialing in the best possible overall sound.

Let me describe the two areas where the woofer system has compromises (this is not a criticism, just a description - compromises are inevitable in speaker design).

First off, there is a significant discrepancy between the radiation pattern of the woofer and of the horns. The horns produce an approximately 60-degree radiation pattern, and the woofers are approximately omnidirectional. Let's look at the implications of this - if the woofer level is set so that its first-arrival sound is at the same level as the horn's first-arrival sound, then the reverbrant sound in the bass region (resulting from that omnidirectional bass pattern) will be about 9 dB louder than the reverbertant sound in the mid & treble region. So, the bass will be overpowering.

Conversely, if we set the level of the woofer so that the net in-room volume level of the woofer and horns are the same, the first-arrival sound of the woofer will be about 9 dB down, with a resulting loss of impact (these numbers are estimations, but the trend they illustrate is valid).

So the woofer level setting is an inevitable compromise between a thick bass on the one hand, and weak bass impact on the other.

By the way, a bass horn would be the obvious solution because it could match the directional characteristics of the mid & treble horn, but bass horns are about the size of refrigerators.

Looking more closely at the wooferbox itself, there is an inevitable tradeoff relationship between box size, efficiency, and bass extension. Avantgarde has gone with a reasonably compact box size and deep bass, which means the efficiency is fairly low. Now, there is a correlation between efficiency and dynamic contrast, so we would expect the woofer section not to have the wonderful liveliness and dynamic contrast of the horns. While I'd have to say the woofer does better than expected in this area, there still is an audible dynamic discontinuity - the bass just isn't as lively as those horns.

Now, we all have differing degrees of sensitivity to different colorations and imperfections, so until they build the perfect loudspeaker, we're left to pick the set of imperfections we find least objectionable. If you are epecially sensitive to the lack of coherence between the horns and woofers, you might consider the Classic Audio Reproductions T-1.

The CAR T-1 has a very efficient woofer but it doesn't go as deep as the Avantgarde woofer does, and the box is quite a bit larger. The midrange horn used in the T-1 also has a wider radiation pattern than that in the Avantgardes, so there is less discrepancy between woofer and horn. I would say the CAR's are a more coherent loudspeaker in the bass, while the Avantgardes are more coherent in the high treble. I think the CAR's have some of the best bass I've heard come out of a box - they sort of shattered my anti-reflex-box prejudices.

I don't sell either of these, but I admire both the Avantgardes and the Classic Audio Reproductions speakers.
Wow, Audio, your epistle is brief & staggeringly to the point. My hat off! Cheers,
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. I really want to get over the bass issue with the Unos/Duos. Maybe in the end I will given the compelling presentation of these speakers.
I will make a suggestion that you could try. Have you tried placing them in the corners? This placement will simulate the radiation pattern of a bass horn, for your woofer box. It is possible that it may integrate better in this location. You will have to play with the controls on the bass box some more, because the corner load will add about 6 more db to the bottom end. There may be some tradeoff in imaging, though. Probably worth a try.
As a matter of interest, did you prefer the Duos over the Unos? I've heard convincing reports that the Uno (with 10" drivers in sub) as a more satisfactory design. I happen to have Unos as they were in my budget range and so well considered by Stereophile and others. I had not heard a Duo until recently abd I must say, I wasn't of the opinion they are any better, let alone £XXX better!

On the question of base coherence, I would agree it is not perfect, but anorther idea worth trying if you haven't yet done so, is to change the polarity of the bass unit. This is mentioned in the handbook (I think), but often overlooked.

I have found satisfactory settings for my subs and I'm very happy with the system generally. However I think that the bass performance varies a bit more rom one CD to another compared with conventional speakers. I find that on a few CDs the bass booms slightly more than I'd expect, but on most it's fine. Those few slightly booming CDs would possibly be less so on other speakers.

Overall, though I think they're fantastic speakers - I'm still looking for an ideal amplifier!