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Thiel replacements

I'm thinking about purchasing replacements for my Thiel 3.5s. For some reason, I can't get the speakers to disappear. I get a center image, whether its vocals or guitar, but that's about where the soundstage ends. All other instruments appear to be coming directly from the speakers. It really stinks! Is this just a characteristic of Thiel speakers? I don't see how it could be, though, as many people think very highly of them.

I don't think the room is the problem, but here are the dimensions. They are along the short wall. The room is 13' X 19', the speakers are 8' apart, I sit 9' from them, and they are about 5' from the front wall. The left speaker basically has no side wall next to it, as it's next to a large opening which connects the living room to the dining room. The right speaker is about 3' from the side wall. They are currently slightly toed in, which seems to be the best. I have tried them at all different severities of toe.

Speaker polarities are correct, unless of course there is a problem inside one of the speakers themselves, but I doubt it. The EQ box had just been gone over by Thiel, so it should be ok.

My components are: Jolida jd100 cd player, Anthem Pre1L preamp, Classe CA-200 amplifier, and all cables are Jon Risch designs which utilizing Belden coaxial cable. The ICs are twisted pairs and the speaker wires are cross connected coaxial cables.

I don't know if I should consider new speakers, spend several more weeks moving these around the room, or ?????? Any suggestions would be great, whether they are tweaks or whatever. I look forward to hearing what the pros have to say! Hopefully it will help my system perform the way it should.

Thanks,
kevin
ketchup
david99
1,467 posts
 
The 3.5's like plenty of space,especially between them.
I have mine ~10 feet apart with just a slight toe in.
I sit ~ 12 feet from the speakers and get a wide and deep stage.At times (recording dependent) I get imaging ~ 2 feet to the outside plane of the speakers.
Mine sit on Thiel supplied spikes.
I have tried several speaker cables inc.Harmonic Technology Pro-11's, Kimber 8TC and others and settled on MIT T-2's.They gave me the widest and deepest stage.The MIT's sounded the best in all areas also.
Even though you say your speakers are in phase,it doesnt sound like an in phase stage you are describing.
Have you tried switching ONE speaker cable at the amp end? Switch the + with the neg.on one cable only.
If your bass EQ was bad,either it would just be dead or making a horrible noise.
Im surprised Thiel had you send the bass EQ.
Check for proper phase..do what ozzfly suggests and let us know.
david99
1,467 posts
 
BTW,if it is your room,different speakers wont remidy the problem.
I would keep the Thiels and put some work into your room and different speaker placement.
Set up properly,the 3.5's are tough to beat,esp.at the used prices.
I love mine!
maxcast
95 posts
 
Do you have anything inbetween your speakers?
Have you tried sitting closer to the speakers?
Do you have any room treatments going on?
vader007
121 posts
 
Wow, I agree with all of the above recommendations, I would try no toe at all, space the the room in thirds or fiths for placment from front wall. Last, the 3.5's are a very old design maybee its just time to upgrade them. Though this should NOT fix the problem you are having. My last thought is room treatments, I didnt see you list any. The room is as important if not more than the equipment. I have seen mid-fi equipment sound great in a good room and great equipment sound poor in a bad room. Hope this helps.

P.S. I also agree with the MIT cables, contact Joe Abrams here on Audiogon.
tombowlus
416 posts
 
I have 3.6's, and they image very well, but as others have alluded, are very sensitive to upstream gear. For soundstage, I found the biggest improvement in my system by upgrading the amps. After auditioning several amps, I ended up buying a pair of Theta Enterprises, and they present a very deep and wide soundstage with my Thiels. Instruments are well placed, and you really don't hear the speakers at all. In fact, if you close your eyes, you really can't hear them at all, though most of the soundstage is between the speakers. I have mine about 11' apart, and my listening position is about 10' from each. For speaker cables, I tried lower end MIT, but wasn't happy, so I upgraded to Cardas Neutral Reference, and I am very happy with them.

Tom.
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