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Tube amp for rock? Newb Questions

Ive been plowing though the posts here and thought this seems like a place I could find some more help.

Anyway, I listen to rock about 80% of the time. Anything from very heavy metal to 80s rock. Some blues, some softer rock, and Pink Floyd, I dont mind jazz or big band or female vocalists, but im off point....mostly rock. My room is about 12X22.

Im upgrading a very mainstream set of components that ive just sort of lived with for years:
Yamaha CDC 905 Changer
JVC 518VBK AV Reciever
Kenwood JL-680 3-Way, 12"main, 92db, 70w, Circa 1989 Speakers

Going to a hi-fi shop of any kind is just not realistic on a regular basis(very remote) so im leaning heavily on the forums and reviews online to gauge a direction.

So far ive tried a Cambridge Azur 340A and now currently demoing a 540A (both along with a set of AudioQuest ICs). Honestly the ICs made a huge leap with my original setup..I was impressed. Anyway, the CA amps are very musical, more imaged and more detailed. However my initial impression is these are not rock amps. Negatives are the guitars are now more "in the back" so to speak, more harshness/treble/brightness, and also a more general laid back sense, almost like the corners of big rock and roll hits are rounded off if that makes sense.

Am I on track that these amps arent rock amps? Or is it possible the speakers are now more exposed for their faults? Ditto the CD player?

To take this further, I feel whats most associated with "rock" or "heavy metal" are punch, power, volume and bass. I agree....to a point. Ill take killer midrange over heavy bass, and what good are punch, power and volume without feel, subtleties and tone?

As a side note, ive been playing guitar for 20+ years, when talking guitar amps, IMO there is nothing to discuss, tube is FAR superior to SS. I particularly like EL84 juiced amps, smooth, warm amd sweet. Is there a correlation with tube audio?

I dont want to start the "what to upgrade first" debate, ive read all the many many opinions....:) Im open to speakers or source, but right now looking at amps(with my system im thinking just pick one and get started...bad idea?)

I know some feel SS is the way to go for a rock amp, but currently im assuming based on my experiences so far and guitar tastes im going to like tube amps. I certainly could be wrong.

I like the talk about the Manley Stingray. Ive read everything every search engine will find about it and talked to Manley as well as some dealers. Any opinions on it for my wants/need? What about the Prologue 2 or the Jolidas? Are then in the same ball park as the Stingray or are we talking a step down?

For speakers ive looked at and considering(based on $$) the Athena F2.2s, Paradigm Espirits, and most others in this price range, but also found some Dali Towers that are slightly more(may get a chance to hear them in a couple of weeks). Based on my future plans/$/listening habits, any recommendations?

I hope tihs is semi-clear, I appreciate any thoughts, Thanks!
zamdrang
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,841 posts
 
Zamdrang, there is a lot of difference between tube amp designs. To get a more dynamic quality (often audiophiles *mean* 'distortion' when they use the word 'dynamic' so I am clarifying that point by insisting that I mean *actual* dynamics), the less feedback used, the less compression the amp will exhibit. The problem is that often distortion increases with decreased feedback, so to really work right the amp has to have low amounts of distortion *without* feedback.

This is possible, but it is unusual. Many tube amp manufacturers want to get their amps to work on the same speakers that transistors do, and so add larger amounts of feedback- this pushes them closer to transistor sound.

I feel that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. What I mean is, if we are going to use tubes, let's embrace that and then see what is possible if we let go of trying to make a tube amp do what transistors do. The result is a different world.

BTW, check out Aesma Daeva (myspace.com/aesmadaeva)... a favorite of mine.
gregm
3,405 posts
 
Zamdrang, a quick look at published specs for the Stingray & Dalis reveals the following challenges:

*output impedance Stingray 20 /100 Hz: 2,8/2,6ohm resp. Quite high, given that...
*Dali, "nominal" impedance (i.e. 1W/ at 1kHz???): 4 ohm

Further,
* Stingray output power triode/linear modes= 20/40W resp. which gives you a maximum undistorted sound pressure level on paper of 99/102dB at one metre away fm the speakers. Minus 6dB for every doubling of distance so at 4m away (usual listening distance) the max would be ~87/90dB. That's loud but not that loud ESPECIALLY when you have a lot of low frequency content (which eats up power)...

An approximation of real world dynamics may be had through horn-loaded speakers... such speakers would typically mate well with tube-based amps.

As a side issue, the Stingray output impedance specs: 20Hz-2,8 / 100Hz-2,6 / 1kHz- 2,0 seem to indicate that the output transformers are optimised for higher frequencies rather than lower frequency interfacing with the speakers. Also the, the 5ohm "optimal speaker load" plus "damping factor: 10" is puzzling; it would make more sense if this read: "optimal speaker load: min. 5ohm". Manley is a serious company so, if I'm not missing something, we can assume it's their marketing copy that got mixed up -- certainly not their engineers dept!
sogood51
2,157 posts
 
I think you went wrong in a couple of areas:

1. Speakers...those were "NOT" rock speakers.

2. Rock amps...if, after your research... you come to the conclusion that you need 50 watts, buy at least 100....150 is even better.

I rarely listen to hard rock anymore...but when I do, I use my "rock" speakers.

Dave
eagleman6722
217 posts
 
Zambrang,

I still have my TAD 60 with Tung Sol 6550s and I just put some Amperex made in usa 12AU7s in. I listen to 99% rock and with the Vandys, (86DB I think) this has turned out to be a real nice combo for my ears. The TS and Amperex has changed the sound to be more up front with nice extention and punch. I played Dark Side of the Moon CD last week and heard dynamics that I have never heard before with the other combos. I do not have to push this amp very hard to get room filling punchy sound.

With tubes, I have come to realize that the particular tube flavor can influence the characteristics of the sound quite a bit. I have tried RCA cleartops and EH 6CA7s in this amp and did not feel the robust character that i am hearing now. If I were listening to classical or softer music, I believe that I would try a different tube flavor which might be a better fit. Atmosphere might disagree though as I am still a newbie at this.

Eagleman
donm
2 posts
 
Zambrand,Eagleman, & everyone else...
This post has been great! I'm looking for the same thing. A tube amp, probably integrated, for rock. I am getting rid of my Classe CA-100s & CP-35, but keeping the Hales Concept 2s. I did pick up the Jolida JD1501RC and a pair of Totem Arros for a 2nd System and that combo is pretty good. But still looking for something else for my main system. I too liked what was written about the Stingray, and even talked to Albert @ Manley. He was quite up front and didn't think the Stingray would be a good match with the Hales. A local shop has the Valve Audio Predator (from South Africa, I think) and it was amazing with with tracks like 'Your Latest Trick', Dire Straits. But I didn't like what I heard with harder rock. So, I'm still interested in Rogue Audio Tempest II, or maybe Jolida 502b, or one of the others that have been mentioned in this post. Anyway, you guys keep writing, I'll keep reading, and if I find something that works I'll let you know - Thanks!
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