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Tube amp for rock? Newb Questions

Ive been plowing though the posts here and thought this seems like a place I could find some more help.

Anyway, I listen to rock about 80% of the time. Anything from very heavy metal to 80s rock. Some blues, some softer rock, and Pink Floyd, I dont mind jazz or big band or female vocalists, but im off point....mostly rock. My room is about 12X22.

Im upgrading a very mainstream set of components that ive just sort of lived with for years:
Yamaha CDC 905 Changer
JVC 518VBK AV Reciever
Kenwood JL-680 3-Way, 12"main, 92db, 70w, Circa 1989 Speakers

Going to a hi-fi shop of any kind is just not realistic on a regular basis(very remote) so im leaning heavily on the forums and reviews online to gauge a direction.

So far ive tried a Cambridge Azur 340A and now currently demoing a 540A (both along with a set of AudioQuest ICs). Honestly the ICs made a huge leap with my original setup..I was impressed. Anyway, the CA amps are very musical, more imaged and more detailed. However my initial impression is these are not rock amps. Negatives are the guitars are now more "in the back" so to speak, more harshness/treble/brightness, and also a more general laid back sense, almost like the corners of big rock and roll hits are rounded off if that makes sense.

Am I on track that these amps arent rock amps? Or is it possible the speakers are now more exposed for their faults? Ditto the CD player?

To take this further, I feel whats most associated with "rock" or "heavy metal" are punch, power, volume and bass. I agree....to a point. Ill take killer midrange over heavy bass, and what good are punch, power and volume without feel, subtleties and tone?

As a side note, ive been playing guitar for 20+ years, when talking guitar amps, IMO there is nothing to discuss, tube is FAR superior to SS. I particularly like EL84 juiced amps, smooth, warm amd sweet. Is there a correlation with tube audio?

I dont want to start the "what to upgrade first" debate, ive read all the many many opinions....:) Im open to speakers or source, but right now looking at amps(with my system im thinking just pick one and get started...bad idea?)

I know some feel SS is the way to go for a rock amp, but currently im assuming based on my experiences so far and guitar tastes im going to like tube amps. I certainly could be wrong.

I like the talk about the Manley Stingray. Ive read everything every search engine will find about it and talked to Manley as well as some dealers. Any opinions on it for my wants/need? What about the Prologue 2 or the Jolidas? Are then in the same ball park as the Stingray or are we talking a step down?

For speakers ive looked at and considering(based on $$) the Athena F2.2s, Paradigm Espirits, and most others in this price range, but also found some Dali Towers that are slightly more(may get a chance to hear them in a couple of weeks). Based on my future plans/$/listening habits, any recommendations?

I hope tihs is semi-clear, I appreciate any thoughts, Thanks!
zamdrang
zamdrang OP
33 posts
 
Appreciate the advice. Its really eating at me just "why" the combo didnt work for me, so that helps...but yet on paper (and ive read the "trust your ears not the specs" advice) it should be a good match. The Stingray is optimized for a 5 ohm load. The Dalis I have are a 4 Ohm, 89db with a very flat impedance(so I was told)

I went back and scoured the net for Stingray reviews and discussion(torturing myself I know..:) and it sounds absolutely perfect for what im looking for....talk about sellers remorse! Even found a review running a 4 ohm, 89db speaker which caught my eye.

Before letting it go and thinking heavily about my problem being a speaker match issue I did some experimenting using it to drive my old '89 era Kenwoods (8ohm, 92db, 140 watt, 12" 3-way floorstanders). Since the Dalis use a smaller driver(5") I was thinking the bass would be much better on the 12" Kenwoods. Though a little less refined it sounded much like it did with the Dalis. It was noticeably louder at a given volume setting but generally the same animal(probably no news to true audiophiles...but a revelation to me) And the punch you hear/read about...well I just didnt hear it, same as the with the Dalis.

It really didnt rock the Kenwoods any better then my old (much cheaper)JVC HT receiver. It was more layered and dimensional, sweeter, but I wouldnt say hugely more dynamic, and certainly not any punchier in the bass dept..actually less so. Crazy to me. My son and I sat for 2 hours with all our favorite metal cds....back and forth between it and the JVC, and in the end we both agreed it was better....but not THAT much better. That night it went on Agon.

(I want to emphasize this was with Metal cds..Megadeth, Iced Earth..to name a few. As I said above I LOVED the Stingray/Dalis with softer stuff, accoustic guitar, jazz, blues, and vocals...wow...really really impressive)

But its killing me to admit it didnt work, I really wanted to like the Stingray. Based on all that I read and heard...and still hear...I just know I must have been missing something...u know?

But anyway, enough crying in my beer..... Im sure the Stingray does things that the Rotel wont, ill post after ive had some time with it driving my Dalis and my Kenwoods.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,942 posts
 
Zamdrang, there is a lot of difference between tube amp designs. To get a more dynamic quality (often audiophiles *mean* 'distortion' when they use the word 'dynamic' so I am clarifying that point by insisting that I mean *actual* dynamics), the less feedback used, the less compression the amp will exhibit. The problem is that often distortion increases with decreased feedback, so to really work right the amp has to have low amounts of distortion *without* feedback.

This is possible, but it is unusual. Many tube amp manufacturers want to get their amps to work on the same speakers that transistors do, and so add larger amounts of feedback- this pushes them closer to transistor sound.

I feel that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. What I mean is, if we are going to use tubes, let's embrace that and then see what is possible if we let go of trying to make a tube amp do what transistors do. The result is a different world.

BTW, check out Aesma Daeva (myspace.com/aesmadaeva)... a favorite of mine.
gregm
3,409 posts
 
Zamdrang, a quick look at published specs for the Stingray & Dalis reveals the following challenges:

*output impedance Stingray 20 /100 Hz: 2,8/2,6ohm resp. Quite high, given that...
*Dali, "nominal" impedance (i.e. 1W/ at 1kHz???): 4 ohm

Further,
* Stingray output power triode/linear modes= 20/40W resp. which gives you a maximum undistorted sound pressure level on paper of 99/102dB at one metre away fm the speakers. Minus 6dB for every doubling of distance so at 4m away (usual listening distance) the max would be ~87/90dB. That's loud but not that loud ESPECIALLY when you have a lot of low frequency content (which eats up power)...

An approximation of real world dynamics may be had through horn-loaded speakers... such speakers would typically mate well with tube-based amps.

As a side issue, the Stingray output impedance specs: 20Hz-2,8 / 100Hz-2,6 / 1kHz- 2,0 seem to indicate that the output transformers are optimised for higher frequencies rather than lower frequency interfacing with the speakers. Also the, the 5ohm "optimal speaker load" plus "damping factor: 10" is puzzling; it would make more sense if this read: "optimal speaker load: min. 5ohm". Manley is a serious company so, if I'm not missing something, we can assume it's their marketing copy that got mixed up -- certainly not their engineers dept!
sogood51
2,157 posts
 
I think you went wrong in a couple of areas:

1. Speakers...those were "NOT" rock speakers.

2. Rock amps...if, after your research... you come to the conclusion that you need 50 watts, buy at least 100....150 is even better.

I rarely listen to hard rock anymore...but when I do, I use my "rock" speakers.

Dave
eagleman6722
217 posts
 
Zambrang,

I still have my TAD 60 with Tung Sol 6550s and I just put some Amperex made in usa 12AU7s in. I listen to 99% rock and with the Vandys, (86DB I think) this has turned out to be a real nice combo for my ears. The TS and Amperex has changed the sound to be more up front with nice extention and punch. I played Dark Side of the Moon CD last week and heard dynamics that I have never heard before with the other combos. I do not have to push this amp very hard to get room filling punchy sound.

With tubes, I have come to realize that the particular tube flavor can influence the characteristics of the sound quite a bit. I have tried RCA cleartops and EH 6CA7s in this amp and did not feel the robust character that i am hearing now. If I were listening to classical or softer music, I believe that I would try a different tube flavor which might be a better fit. Atmosphere might disagree though as I am still a newbie at this.

Eagleman
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