Build location for tube integrateds

I'm going to step out on the ledge here, but that's life...

I don't believe in the "watts is watts" statement. Something else is at work here, which the majority of us (myself included) obviously do not yet understand.

Engineers/scientists love to hit us over the head with the measurements, saying, "Look, the meter says this. Therefore, it must be so..." However, I've seen enough examples of 12 wpc amps outmuscling 100 wpc amps that I now must look over the amp itself, as opposed to looking at the numbers, and then "listen".

Music is a dynamic phenomena, one that when factored into the uniqueness of the power demands of a loudspeaker (like a fingerprint), produce something far more complex than can be wholly represented by putting a 1 KHz test tone through an 8 ohm resistor, and making a value judgement on nothing more than that.

As far as the Manley goes, yes, EL84 amplifiers with its respective tube count tend to produce less real world power. That is true. However, for those who do not need the last word in power, EL84 amps also tend to produce incredible tonality.

In the end, what is and is not important to you must be factored into the equation when you move forward with your purchase. Beyond the lineage requirement for a North American or European tube integrated, I feel the products on the above lists are from good solid companies, meet your price requirements, are built well, and sound good.

Trelja, well said.

I must say, I'm cooling off on the tube idea. I've researched the brands above pretty throughly and the thing that gets me, the measurements, in for example Stereophile. Have you seen those? Especially the 1 KHz square wave. Wow! The output is highly distorted.

It may sound better that way; I'm sure the tube lovers think so. But I'm having a hard time getting over knowing that the input is being distorted that way. Think of it. Everything from the lows to highs are moved all over the place. I still want to try one but I think I'll try maybe the Cary and hook it up to my Klipsch Fortes. Basically I would need to probably spend 5 grand or more to drive the Arials and I'm not convinced it's going to sound that great if I do. I've got to find a tube shop around here and listen to the equipment like I did with the SS stuff.

regards, David

In my experience, tubes- regardless of measurement criteria- present the music in a different and better way. There's more reality there, simply put.

I've owned very great SS stuff that I loved. But when a Cary SLI-80 gave me more musical satisfaction than my $8,000 SS pre and amp, I snapped to attention. Every tube amp I've owned since then has reinforced the notion that there's something there that measurements don't quite capture.

Bottom line- there's a reason tubes are still around- and it ain't measurement criteria. It's music, pure and simple.

I write this as I listen to my tube Exemplar CD player through my Yamamoto HA2 SET headphone amp and AT headphones, spinning the remastered Beggar's Banquet on ABKCO.

Tubes are staying in my house!

I'm not sure what to say about your measurement comment. I own a CAT JL2 and and a Pass Labs XA30.5, arguably among the best samples of tube and SS sound, and I'm sure the Pass measures better, no one would pick a the Pass sound over the CAT sound IMHO. I'm not biased towards tube or ss, I own both, but when you hear both, the choice is clear.