Disturbing "Sonic Trend" showing up on SOTA audio

The sound of unamplified music playing in appropriate venues is of unparalleled value, if for no other it clearly illustrates how far short our audio systems fall short of its reproduction. You my disagree, but if you do think and consider what aspect of a live performance you are willing to sacrifice when you listen to a recording of one in your home. Home audio succeeds best when your system replicates those things which are important to you (not necessarily others).

For example, for folks who value 'detail and imaging' at home, might like to sit in rows D through E on the main floor, center. Go to your favorite hall and sit in that seat and listen to a Mahler symphony. For detail and imaging that is probably as good as it gets. But do you really think that you can even get a small measure of the dynamics you experience in your home. I think not, even if your set up is a well matched and set up SOTA system. Now you might feel different, in degrees as least, if your seats at the symphony are in the ear bleeding section.

Now consider live performance of a solo piano, i.e. the piano. Fantastic instrument but one which sounds so different when heard in a typical concert hall, or in a recital hall specifically made for solo instruments and small groups. Much of what I said in the lst paragraph applies, but seating is not nearly so important in recital halls because the acoustic itself allows for projection of small detail more uniformly. But the dynamic range and frequency range will all but overwhelm your home audio system.

So while I value the knowledge of the experience of listening to live, unamplified, performances of jazz and classical music, and I use this knowledge in setting up a listening room, I don't feel that my goal at home is ever more than to hear sounds that remind me of what I enjoy hearing live. Remind me!

I have no issue with using 'live sound' as a standard for home audio, but when suggested that it can be, or should be a goal of the serious audiophile, to replicate this experience I disagree. It can't be done! You might come close if you make some serious concessions, but when you do that its not really 'live' is it.

Very interesting thread. I think Schubert and Frogman have the best posts. Most people simply do not listen to live, unamplified music anymore. This does NOT invalidate that as the best standard, however, for the reasons they state.

IMO, the most distorted view is that of the bass. Many audiophiles demand what is a very overpowering bass compared to what live, un-amplified bass actually sounds like. This is because they are used to hearing cranked up, electronically produced, un-natural sounding bass, both at rock concerts and in their audio systems. This is quite easily proven at any audio show, which I have done several times, to the chagrin of someone pushing a subwoofer.....but I digress.

@Tgrisham - I would agree with most of what you said, with one huge exception. In this sentence - "the vast majority of music is studio recorded with the engineer's idea of what it should sound like live in person.", I would strike the last three words. Most recording engineers nowadays have absolutely no interest in having their result sound like live - they LOVE the control the dead studio gives them so they can make the music sound however they want, period, without being limited by a specific room.

@Newbee - Your last post is a good one, again with one correction. Rows D or E in a concert hall would be WAY too close to listen to an orchestra as large as that of a Mahler symphony!! A very great deal would be lost sitting that close! Even in the very best concert halls, sound travels back and also up. So the best floor seats are more like 2/3 to 3/4 of the way back - as long as they are not under the overhang of the balconies. The very best sets in the house for listening to a gigantic orchestra, however, would be center, higher up, on what is usually called a mezzanine level in many halls (not the very top level).

Amen to that Learsfool !
I learned 50 years ago the mezzanine is by far the best place to sit.As to it "can't be done", it can be save for
ultimate sound level. You must imprint what coherent sound
sounds like in a symphony hall so your brain will recognize
what coherent sound is like in your space at home . IMO that takes concentrated attention at hundreds of concerts
at a minimum. In short, you need to be as passionate in your listening as a Musician is in their playing.

It may be I was born with an imaging detector disability, but in last 50 years I have been in pretty much everyone of
the great concert halls in Europe and have yet to her one
"image" in the pinpoint way most audiophiles spend money to get their systems to do.
Instrumental separation yes, pinpoint image no.
If I am wrong ,which I often am, I'd like to hear others thoughts on this .

Hi Learsfool, To clarify my poorly stated illustration, I selected the front rows as they might relate to some specific audiophile goals such as 'detail' and 'imaging', as well as the sheer dynamics. In this location they are also the least homogenized as well, as they might be further back in the location your recommend. (The recording engineer can use the rear hall sound and then use spot mikes to give a close-up emphasis to the weaker instruments. It is interesting to hear a violin concerto live, where I have rarely heard screechy violins (strings) either from the soloist or section(s) and a recording where the violins sound both emphasized and often too much so. Not so much with pianos perhaps, but they are such a big sound by themselves. Nonetheless the recording engineers still can't resist sticking a mike under the lid.)

FWIW, probably some of the worst orchestral sounds I have experienced occurred when I was sitting in some ear bleeding seats (at Mosconi Center) listening to some Elgar performed by Andrew Davis. The highs were piercing, the bass non-existent, and worst of all it took forever. The most dramatic performance was of a Mahler Five in row F center, of a multi-use auditorium by a provincial orchestra. The most disappointing was a Mahler 7 in the lower balcony in SF performed by MMT. The 'sound' was OK, the music well blended for right side seats, but I think it might still be playing! So much for MMT's Mahler 7, live anyway, I like his recorded version much more, but maybe because of my nervous bladder. :-)

But the point I really wanted to make was that the sound of 'live & unamplified music' is a moving target. It is too hard to pin down for it to become a meaningful standard to judge audio set- ups and recordings, especially after a recording engineer has performed his magic.

For myself, live music and recorded music are really separate and valid experiences to be enjoyed with out cross references to each other. Makes life simpler and both more enjoyable.

"In short, you need to be as passionate in your listening as a Musician is in their playing.

That's a very good way to put it.