Disturbing "Sonic Trend" showing up on SOTA audio

Very interesting thread. I think Schubert and Frogman have the best posts. Most people simply do not listen to live, unamplified music anymore. This does NOT invalidate that as the best standard, however, for the reasons they state.

IMO, the most distorted view is that of the bass. Many audiophiles demand what is a very overpowering bass compared to what live, un-amplified bass actually sounds like. This is because they are used to hearing cranked up, electronically produced, un-natural sounding bass, both at rock concerts and in their audio systems. This is quite easily proven at any audio show, which I have done several times, to the chagrin of someone pushing a subwoofer.....but I digress.

@Tgrisham - I would agree with most of what you said, with one huge exception. In this sentence - "the vast majority of music is studio recorded with the engineer's idea of what it should sound like live in person.", I would strike the last three words. Most recording engineers nowadays have absolutely no interest in having their result sound like live - they LOVE the control the dead studio gives them so they can make the music sound however they want, period, without being limited by a specific room.

@Newbee - Your last post is a good one, again with one correction. Rows D or E in a concert hall would be WAY too close to listen to an orchestra as large as that of a Mahler symphony!! A very great deal would be lost sitting that close! Even in the very best concert halls, sound travels back and also up. So the best floor seats are more like 2/3 to 3/4 of the way back - as long as they are not under the overhang of the balconies. The very best sets in the house for listening to a gigantic orchestra, however, would be center, higher up, on what is usually called a mezzanine level in many halls (not the very top level).

Amen to that Learsfool !
I learned 50 years ago the mezzanine is by far the best place to sit.As to it "can't be done", it can be save for
ultimate sound level. You must imprint what coherent sound
sounds like in a symphony hall so your brain will recognize
what coherent sound is like in your space at home . IMO that takes concentrated attention at hundreds of concerts
at a minimum. In short, you need to be as passionate in your listening as a Musician is in their playing.

It may be I was born with an imaging detector disability, but in last 50 years I have been in pretty much everyone of
the great concert halls in Europe and have yet to her one
"image" in the pinpoint way most audiophiles spend money to get their systems to do.
Instrumental separation yes, pinpoint image no.
If I am wrong ,which I often am, I'd like to hear others thoughts on this .

Hi Learsfool, To clarify my poorly stated illustration, I selected the front rows as they might relate to some specific audiophile goals such as 'detail' and 'imaging', as well as the sheer dynamics. In this location they are also the least homogenized as well, as they might be further back in the location your recommend. (The recording engineer can use the rear hall sound and then use spot mikes to give a close-up emphasis to the weaker instruments. It is interesting to hear a violin concerto live, where I have rarely heard screechy violins (strings) either from the soloist or section(s) and a recording where the violins sound both emphasized and often too much so. Not so much with pianos perhaps, but they are such a big sound by themselves. Nonetheless the recording engineers still can't resist sticking a mike under the lid.)

FWIW, probably some of the worst orchestral sounds I have experienced occurred when I was sitting in some ear bleeding seats (at Mosconi Center) listening to some Elgar performed by Andrew Davis. The highs were piercing, the bass non-existent, and worst of all it took forever. The most dramatic performance was of a Mahler Five in row F center, of a multi-use auditorium by a provincial orchestra. The most disappointing was a Mahler 7 in the lower balcony in SF performed by MMT. The 'sound' was OK, the music well blended for right side seats, but I think it might still be playing! So much for MMT's Mahler 7, live anyway, I like his recorded version much more, but maybe because of my nervous bladder. :-)

But the point I really wanted to make was that the sound of 'live & unamplified music' is a moving target. It is too hard to pin down for it to become a meaningful standard to judge audio set- ups and recordings, especially after a recording engineer has performed his magic.

For myself, live music and recorded music are really separate and valid experiences to be enjoyed with out cross references to each other. Makes life simpler and both more enjoyable.

"In short, you need to be as passionate in your listening as a Musician is in their playing.

That's a very good way to put it.

As a musician and (somewhat) audiophile, I bought myself a pair of pretty nice omni-directional condenser mics J. Gordon Holt had recommended, and plugged them directly into my Revox A-77 reel-to-reel, in the simple spaced-omni configuration. I recorded some live music (a band I was playing in at the time, with upright piano, tenor and baritone saxes, vocals, drumset, and electric bass and guitar) and some studio sessions, as well as speaking voices (my then two year old son's especially) and other natural sound sources. I monitored all the recording on Sennheiser headphones, and still use the tapes for assessing the sound quality of reproducing gear. You might be amazed at how much more lifelike self-made amateur recordings can sound than commercial releases---so much more transparent and immediate, sounding almost like a direct-to-disc LP in comparison!