I knew I might ruffle a few feathers saying to get a good amp instead of speakers. I agree that speakers make the most difference and contribute the most to a system. But I know for sure you can't make expensive speakers sound good with a cheap amp. You can make cheap speaker sound good though with a good amp. Cheap NAD amps or outlaw or any of the sub 500 amps just don't sound good. I've never hear them and I bet that is the problem. You hook any of those speakers up to a decent system and they will sound pretty good. You can make a pretty good sound happen for around 1000 used with an integrated amp such as the creek destiny or naim nait. But go to much lower and I don't care what speakers you have they won't sound good. If you only have a 1500 budget at least 1/2 should go to amp. If you have a 10,000 budget them you could spend 3x as much on the speakers and it would make sense. But bottom line is without a decent amp you can't make your speakers sound very good. The statement is a little extreme, no one is going to pair a 5k amp with 300 speakers but I contend that would indeed sound better than the opposite of that.
Oh, the frustrations of the speaker search
Yesterday I had a nice opportunity to audition a couple of speakers I felt fit my potential budget and listening preferences. To clear that up:
Budget = $1,200 MAX
Music preferences = 70% prog metal/rock (Tool, Opeth, Dream Theater, Rush, etc.), the rest is a mix of female/male vocalists, movie soundtracks, jazz.
The speakers I went in to audition were Golden Ear Aon 3's and PSB Imagine B's. The shop had an Ayre CD player connected to an NAD C 356BEE integrated amp. Tracks used for demo: Alison Balsom (Trumpet Concerto in E Flat); Tool (Forty Six & Two); Porcupine Tree (The Sound of Muzak); Zac Brown Band (Free); Hans Zimmer (Man of Steel - Terraforming).
My impressions: the Aon 3 ribbon tweeters were doing some really cool things in the treble region, but I didn't like the timbre up there. The midrange was very distant, lacked PRAT, but smooth. Bass was very present (most bass I've ever heard for a bookshelf), but had a rather "bloated" sound to it. I just got the sense that the midbass was bleeding too much into the midrange, causing the lack of presence in vocals and guitars. Soundstage was very nice, but not a whole lot of instrument separation going on. Decent in the detail department. Imaging was solid.
When he switched to the PSBs, I immediately noticed a more defined, taut bass section. Not as much quantity as the Aon 3's, but much tighter and cleaner, IMO. I preferred the midrange handily with the Imagine B's, but definitely noticed the glariness of the metal dome tweeter (as compared to the ribbon in the Aon 3). Overall, I felt the Imagine B was better balanced and the midrange had much more life (positive sense) to it. Soundstage was maybe a bit less in width, same in depth. One thing that I felt was lacking, though, was instrument separation. Imaging was solid.
It was at this point that I felt truly torn. These speakers did things so differently that I really had no idea which one I'd go with (if I had to choose). What made this even more complicated, is the salesman placed a pair of Aerial Acoustics Model 5B on the stands...
Crap. I was glad and mad at the same time after listening to these speakers. Immediately apparent: INSTRUMENT SEPARATION!!! Details, clarity, resolution, timbre. All those words started flooding in my head. Truly balanced sound with a beautifully rendered midrange. Absolutely no glare or harshness to the treble (despite being aluminum dome tweeters...implementation!). Bass quantity was nice, but actually sounded muddy (was very surprised by this).
In the end, it made me realize that even a $2000+/pair speaker can have its flaws (granted still being run by a mid-grade integrated in the NAD). So now I have a reference point, however I don't know if I'd ever be able to achieve that kind of midrange/treble bliss at my price point for the genres I enjoy.
I realized, in the end, that I can live with some bass misfortune (as it can be corrected by cables, electronics, placement, room treatment, etc.)...but I really MUST have that type of midrange/treble that can be so well rendered and discernable, while also being able to ROCK.
This search just got a lot more complicated...
Budget = $1,200 MAX
Music preferences = 70% prog metal/rock (Tool, Opeth, Dream Theater, Rush, etc.), the rest is a mix of female/male vocalists, movie soundtracks, jazz.
The speakers I went in to audition were Golden Ear Aon 3's and PSB Imagine B's. The shop had an Ayre CD player connected to an NAD C 356BEE integrated amp. Tracks used for demo: Alison Balsom (Trumpet Concerto in E Flat); Tool (Forty Six & Two); Porcupine Tree (The Sound of Muzak); Zac Brown Band (Free); Hans Zimmer (Man of Steel - Terraforming).
My impressions: the Aon 3 ribbon tweeters were doing some really cool things in the treble region, but I didn't like the timbre up there. The midrange was very distant, lacked PRAT, but smooth. Bass was very present (most bass I've ever heard for a bookshelf), but had a rather "bloated" sound to it. I just got the sense that the midbass was bleeding too much into the midrange, causing the lack of presence in vocals and guitars. Soundstage was very nice, but not a whole lot of instrument separation going on. Decent in the detail department. Imaging was solid.
When he switched to the PSBs, I immediately noticed a more defined, taut bass section. Not as much quantity as the Aon 3's, but much tighter and cleaner, IMO. I preferred the midrange handily with the Imagine B's, but definitely noticed the glariness of the metal dome tweeter (as compared to the ribbon in the Aon 3). Overall, I felt the Imagine B was better balanced and the midrange had much more life (positive sense) to it. Soundstage was maybe a bit less in width, same in depth. One thing that I felt was lacking, though, was instrument separation. Imaging was solid.
It was at this point that I felt truly torn. These speakers did things so differently that I really had no idea which one I'd go with (if I had to choose). What made this even more complicated, is the salesman placed a pair of Aerial Acoustics Model 5B on the stands...
Crap. I was glad and mad at the same time after listening to these speakers. Immediately apparent: INSTRUMENT SEPARATION!!! Details, clarity, resolution, timbre. All those words started flooding in my head. Truly balanced sound with a beautifully rendered midrange. Absolutely no glare or harshness to the treble (despite being aluminum dome tweeters...implementation!). Bass quantity was nice, but actually sounded muddy (was very surprised by this).
In the end, it made me realize that even a $2000+/pair speaker can have its flaws (granted still being run by a mid-grade integrated in the NAD). So now I have a reference point, however I don't know if I'd ever be able to achieve that kind of midrange/treble bliss at my price point for the genres I enjoy.
I realized, in the end, that I can live with some bass misfortune (as it can be corrected by cables, electronics, placement, room treatment, etc.)...but I really MUST have that type of midrange/treble that can be so well rendered and discernable, while also being able to ROCK.
This search just got a lot more complicated...
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- 40 posts total
NAD is not that bad. SOme people may like it better than many others. Its definitely a good value! I use a very old NAD 7020 re3ceiver pre-amp section in my second system. It is my spare unit I use when needed normally when something else goes down, a pinch hitter originally, but it sounds so good that I have had no reason to take it out. You gotta hear stuff in your room before you can know what is possible for sure. OPs gotten lots of good suggestions and seems to know what he is looking for, so it'll work out fine. NAD is a decent choice to run most any of the speakers mentioned in that price range pretty well. SOme (radicals like me) might even say it is not a bad SS alternative to an inexpensive tube amp, if that's what floats you boat. More so than many SS amps in that price range. Good luck! Small speakers will limit the "power and the glory" of prog/metal/rock music in particular even in a small room (unless you add a sub maybe). I'm a prog-head as much as most anyone and have been there, done that. I'd get the speaker/room interaction right first. Almost any decent amp can drive most any small speakers with limited low end extension very well, though no two are likely to sound exactly the same. There are many very good choices that need not cost a fortune and lots of good information from knowledgeable people about them to soak in as well. |
Thank you all for your well thought out responses and advice. It's certainly a long journey ahead. Forunately, time is on my side, as the new home situation isn't even resolved yet. I will try and follow the path of simply auditioning as many speakers as I can to see what flavors work best with my musical tastes. Hopefully I don't go pissing off some audio shop owners/salesman for repeatedly visiting but purchasing nothing...here's to hoping! |
Hey, FWIW, if interested in OHMs for a good price, now might be a good time to call and see what might be possible. OHM Annual SUmmer SHutdown Sale OHM Super Walsh 2.2000's on sale could be A VERY GOOD SNAG!!!! I bought my F5 series 3 OHMs a few years back at this time of year. With sale price and max 40% trade in I saved over 50% off complete brand new speakers. I also have a pair of OHM Super Walsh 100Series 3 refurbed OHMs I bought used on Agon for $600 a few years back. 2.2000s are newer and improved similar size drivers in the same (vintage Walsh 2) cabinets. They look exactly like the picture. Footprint size is very modest and these might leave nothing to want in a small room like yours if the price is right. if you talk to John Strohbeen, I'd recommend telling him exactly what you are looking for soundwise and describe your room, etc. That would help him steer you right. Good luck whichever way you might go. |
- 40 posts total