How to reproduce sound of piano

Newbee and Dave,

You guys are on to something - how to make a grand piano sound real in a room that is not big enough for a grand piano. It seems we all missed the obvious...it just ain't possible. The room is a good 50% of what you hear...

I'm no sub expert, and don't speak tech with great authority. But I can respond from gut experience (pun intended). A sub will add the kind of bass you 'feel' as opposed to that kind of bass with detail and nuance that you 'hear'. I wonder what part of the range of piano, or rather how much of what you actually listen to, might be 'enhanced' by use of a sub. Two subs, one sub, they'll both address the same thing (bass that is mostly felt rather than heard, without much nuance, and at a possible sacrifice of imaging), some better than others, and better in pairs, yes. Setup is critical. I read somewhere that the extra keys on the Bosendorfer can reach down to 16hz (seems unlikely, but?). I use an ACI Force XL sub (current model) in a smallish / midsize room. It is indeed tricky to setup and integrate well. I got it pretty well done, down to 20hz after which I loose about 8db (I think at 16hz). Lots of trial and error. They are good subs, indeed. Very fast and good for music (as opposed to HT). I still have some suckout issues to deal with my room, but most of that is a WAF sacrifice I fear. I'm working on it. If you're looking at subs and have a bigger budget than ACI or REL I really like the JBL subs - my friend's got one integrated beautifully with his Avalon Indras in a moderate room and that system does piano beautifully to my ears. I don't know how much the sub has to do with it though as it does a damn good job with or without the sub. I notice it's absence only in the lowest octaves (obviously), but I don't think that has an overall impact on how well his system reproduces piano. I think he's running a straight line-out from the pre with no filters on the mains (as I run my sub). I've tried filtering the mains too at 60hz, but I felt I was loosing some detail somehow so went back to line outs to both.

OOps, yes I must repent, being even much much slower than Newbee, I only now realized that Plaser had pictures of his room here! I've always had a mental picture of his "new room" in my head. Considering the room pictured here, I'd fully agree with what Mapman and others had to say and 30hz would indeed do.
So sorry folks, didn't want to be complicated.
Happy listening,
Detlof

"-how to make a grand piano sound real in a room that is not big enough for a grand piano."
I know what you're saying Shadorne, but my living room is not big enough for a symphony orchestra.....come to think of it....it's not big enough for the Beatles??!
But it doesn't stop us trying to suspend belief? Isn't that what we're all trying to achieve?

Dave (Sogood) said

Detlof

I guess I just don't find subwoofers, that complicated an animal to tame.

Actually the complexity Detlof refers to may stem from his use of 2x the product we usually refer to as "sub-woofer" (one as woof, the other as subwoof) AND a super-tweet which enhances the lower register when done right.

Generalising, this set up seems the best so far as things stand (and as far as I can tell, which may not be very far): one "full range" speaker. This will be used to cover, as well as possible, the range between ¬100 - 10kHz give or take some.
THEN, you need to go down & to go up.
Especially if you want to reproduce piano which, in the unlikely event of a good recording, will play percussively from ¬17Hz up there with the dogs if not bats.

IMO Detlof's approach, i.e. to add both an upper tweet is most opportune. I've tried it myself, with outstanding results.
Thereafter the two separate units to deal with the 2-3 bass octaves is an excellent way of dealing with a difficult subject; it seems that Sogood is doing the same thing with his 4x external woof units.

Couldn't such a set up be replicated in a cheaper version?