The Clever Little Sharp

And you are wrong again Zaikesman. You said "Baby, you read about a clock improving the sound, you went to the mall and paid money for a clock, hoping it would improve your sound. Get real." I CLEARLY have said over and over again that I expected nothing. I was hoping for nothing. I thought the clock was bull. What do you not understand about these statements?

And yes, there is clearly a difference in the sound of ceramic cable risers. Many here on Audiogon could probably attest to that fact. The trouble is, many that call themselves audiophiles don't take the time to experiment, but they are full of opinions that are OK for print.

Yes, I believe that either you don't care enough to try, can't really discern differences, or refuse to hear differences due to your intellect.

What I really believe though is that you just enjoy a good argument.

Regardless, everyone here is always welcome over for a listen.

Nothing 'pitiful' about casual auditioning procedures...no damn procedures at all, golly gee...just listening...I ain't runnin a lab aint writing a column ain't being a scientist...no sir! If I want scientific listening experiences I go get my ears tested...If I want science of most any kind, I don't go lookin on the web. The fact that the clock is cheap makes it easy to try out. Given all the expensive equipment and 'tweaks' out there that people are making money on, it's nice once in a while to 'tweak' my nose at some snobs and fakes. Sell me some dots at $500 I say no thanks, sell me some dots at Home Depot for $1.00 I say, hey! Blue Tack vs its absolutely equivalent office depot counterpart. Once again, good job Tgun5 and the naysayers can go do their science as they please.

Hell, I've seen posts here that debated things like the effect of receptacle wall plate material. So why is THIS causing sacrilege? Because it defies common sense or knowledge? My common sense once told me that an "EMF sponge" is nonsense. Yet I swear to the effect of Shakti Stones on my tube gear and digital processors.

So maybe there is something to this that we don't know about yet. The so-called atomic clocks are tuned into a government station that transmits on a frequency of 60 kHz to consumer devices. These clocks pick up the frequency to self-align. Maybe, just maybe (I ain't no physicists), there is noise generated from these clocks that have fundamentals of the 60 kHz pulses.

When we process sounds, it's well known that our brains can fill in lower fundamentals of tones that we hear without that lower tone actually being generated. In other words, an audio illusion. Again, without any scientific evidence to back this up, there may be an illusory effect when one is in proximity to these clocks when they're tuned into the alignment frequency. Maybe this explains the post - unless you're messin' with our heads, dude :)

In all my posts, I have never ever questioned or commented on what other people state they hear or don't hear. If I have never listened to something, then an opinion on my part is just plain uninformed and doesn't add to the debate. Is there something to this? For 10 bucks, I will try the same thing - then I'll see for myself. If I don't hear anything different, I'll chalk it up to my physiology and call it a day.

There may be an explanation; but I think it may be illusory and not have anyhthing to do with an internal change in electronics, speakers or power line quality. A way to prove this would be to put one of these clocks in a room with live musicians and see if there is the same effect.

I CLEARLY have said over and over again that I expected nothing. I was hoping for nothing. I thought the clock was bull.

Sure, sure. That's why you then went and bought a clock --but not even the clock in question -- because you thought it was "bull". You're a debunker, only a thrifty one.

Let me ask you something Tgun5: Why is it so hard for you to admit to being human? Do you honestly believe it's more probable that it's the clock that makes the sound better, when you yourself can offer no explanation for how, when you admit it's absurd, *and* you acknowledge you're aware of the reality of psychological effects that are well-established -- as well as the type of testing which can counter those effects?

Let me put it another way: If things were reversed, and it was me who came on the forum saying that buying a clock somehow improved my sound, and you were the stone skeptic you claim you were, would you think it was the clock that was "working", or that it was in my mind? The answer must be the latter. So why can't you apply that to yourself? Just look in the mirror.

I believe that either you don't care enough to try, can't really discern differences, or refuse to hear differences due to your intellect.

There's a difference between trying things that could plausibly have an effect, and bringing magical totems into the listening room. I do the former same as any audiophile, and have routinely heard differences, usually subtle but often still valuable (though sometimes not), between rational tweaks like cables, tubes, suspension devices, and power conditioning. The way I see it, I'm actually *more* curious than you, because I'm not afraid to critically examine what I think I hear.

But you're right, I refuse to delude myself that clocks, little wooden disks, etc. that have no means of causation are worthy of idol worship. I think (or hope) the majority of audiophiles are still this way, and that even for those who aren't, these nonsensical fads do ultimately seem to come and go without leaving much of a mark in the end -- surprise surprise (even if something always comes along to replace them when they get tired, and even if those new things often seem suspiciously recycled). Get back to me if you still think putting a clock in the room does anything for your sound a year from now.

It boils down to this: You tried a tweak that even you agree shouldn't be able to accomplish anything at all, you found yourself thinking it actually worked but couldn't imagine why, and you did some tests that you hoped would help confirm or refute what you were having a hard time believing you were hearing. So, I came on the thread to offer you an alternative theory, one far more plausible than any other, about why all this seemed to happen the way it did. Despite it making perfect sense, you rejected it out of hand even though you can't offer another explanation. Therefore, you must think it less likely that you and your friends are subject to psychological phenomena common to all of us, and more likely that your clock is magic.

That's not only silly, it's arrogant and hypocritical. I wondered above at the seemingly incongruous fact that audiophiles as a group are doubtlessly better-educated and higher-earning than the population as a whole (disclaimer: I can't say I fit that description), yet in some ways many audiophiles behave as if they're more scientifically ignorant and gullible with their money than I believe most typical non-audiophiles would be faced with the same lack of evidence and plausibility.

But now I think I may have gotten it backwards: It's not that audiophiles in the camp of the Clock are carrying on as though they were ignorant and gullible *despite* being better-educated and higher-earning as a group; they're actually prone to acting that way precisely *because* of those things. Guys really *do* think they can hear better than other people; really *do* think they're not subject to the same pitfalls of the mind as the riff-raff; really *do* believe they're somehow exceptional -- more perceptive, more refined, more confident, beyond mere science, beyond questioning, beyond logic, beyond the technology they don't even understand, bold pioneers on an unacknowledged frontier.

Normal standards of reason and scrutiny obviously can't apply to such an elite group, on an aesthetic mission. To question them is to doubt them is to insult them. With their expensive gear and the encouragement (or peer pressure) of this frequently delusionary community of insecure neurotics, they've come to believe they're in a way superior to mere mortals, that simply acquiring a little practice and an esoteric vocabulary means they know and can tell things less sensitve people can't. Well, what it also means, apparently, is that they're prone to losing touch with reality in a particular, peculiar manifestation, on top of all the other baseless superstitions plenty of non-audiophiles, with or without learning and wealth, can tend to believe. And then we ask why the music-loving public at large seems mostly indifferent to being granted the privilege of sharing in the joy of our wonderfully pretentious hobby...

Enjoy your clocks while you can guys, there's no point arguing about it anymore. At least you've stymied Kait in a way I never could have, and for that I thank you.

Zaikesman, while you are more reasonable than many others demanding experiments to "prove" an effect, you also fail to realize that the so-called placebo effect works both ways. Prior conceptions, such as yours, that there could be no effect can condition not hearing one. Were medical studies to suggest to subjects that this medicine will have no effect, it would minimize its effect.

No doubt some are more susceptible to suggestion than others, and I think Tgun5 has you about his rejecting other tweaks where your logic would suggest he would embrace all tweaks.

As you have said somewhat dismissively here and elsewhere, there is no resolving the dispute between those who demand experiments with some blinds and others who merely want to report their experiences. I personally find Tgun5's report fascinating.

I would add one additional personal experience. Long ago before Tice copied them, a small Iowa company made the EAU-1 clock. This was not battery powered. I bought one and found that it had a positive effect if plugged in the right way. It has a two prong plug. Scott Nixon suggested that RadioShack had an identical clock, which they did. I bought one and unlike Scott found it failed to give any improvement regardless of how it was plugged in.

Several weeks ago, I again tried removing the EAU-1 and then reinserting it and checking which way the plug was inserted. It still has a positive effect and also gives me the time in my listening room.