Jazz for aficionados

Re bullshit and critics:

This has been an issue since time immemorial. It is the way it is and the way it will always be; as soon as someone is given a pulpit, personal agendas and politics of one sort or another will step in. However, there are some good critics that can offer solid guidance; and, more importantly and as with most things, it's up to the public that wants to make educated choices to educate itself and not rely only on what a "critic" says is good. Once again, THAT is the reason to learn more about the building blocks of music.

****But what I find some times in jazz is that you’ll find somebody can get up there and frankly, because I know my training as a musician, I know they’re completely bullshitting.****- McBride

It always comes back to that; assuming the listener wants to base his opinions on something other than gut or emotional reaction. Nothing inherently wrong with that approach, but it depends on how deeply the listener wants to dig"

IMO, a "danger" even bigger than the influence that a clueless critic who promotes bullshit might have is the danger of worthy music that is honestly and creatively pushing the envelope might be dismissed as bs or just noise. So to answer your question, no, not all free or avantgard Jazz is bs. There are a lot of good examples of free music that sticks to the rule of thumb that first a player needs to be able to play "inside" before he can play "outside. THAT is what McBride was saying.

McBride:
Lord, Lord. I know he must have a grand plan.

This is what McBride said:

"But what I find some times in jazz is that you’ll find somebody can get up there and frankly, because I know my training as a musician, I know they’re completely bullshitting. And there’s always some critic who says, “Oh, he’s not bullshitting. He’s just expressing himself in a different kind of way.” And I’ll go, “That’s bullshit!” and now they’re creating a space for this person to garner an audience of confused people who don’t really know the difference: “Some critic said this guy can play. I don’t think he sounds as good as Sonny Rollins but someone said he’s a genius so I better pay attention to him.” Meanwhile, guys who are obviously greater at what they do--it’s almost as if people think anyone can do that. Now this sort of abstract, strange playing that no one can understand, some people now think that’s what they need to get with. Ahh, man".

THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE ENTIRE ARTICLE:
" And there’s always some critic who says, “Oh, he’s not bullshitting. He’s just expressing himself in a different kind of way.” And I’ll go, “That’s bullshit!” and now they’re creating a space for this person to garner an audience of confused people who don’t really know the difference: “Some critic said this guy can play. I don’t think he sounds as good as Sonny Rollins but someone said he’s a genius so I better pay attention to him.”

Check out the phrase 'creating space' for the noise makers to the detriment of Jazz and real players. Perfectly expressed!!!.

Cheers

I agree; perfectly expressed and no different than anything I said. I am simply adding that it can't be stopped; it's the way it always has been and always will be. Only solution is for the public to educate itself and be able to make its own decisions. Bitching and moaning about a particular sad state of affairs seldom accomplishes anything. The "danger" that I am referring to I have seen in this thread several times. A worthy player is dismissed as a noisemaker and lumped in with the bullshitters simply because the style is not appreciated or understood. Seems to me that anyone who is serious about this music should promote its growth and appreciate the fact that it will evolve; not stifle it. The space created by the clueless critic then becomes far less relevant. Some of the bullshitters may not entirely disappear from the scene, but the good guys will rise to the top.

Rok, you didn't even recognize that my very last post before this one, was in response to your play list that you posted on 02-07-15.

People have been arguing over this since the start of Jazz. This open letter was written by Mingus, after he said, in a blind listening test, that Dave Brubeck and Paul Desmond were not doing it right.

http://www.mingusmingusmingus.com/mingus/an-open-letter-to-miles-davis-

I believe the open minded listener, Frogman spoke of, is more, by nature open to BS. The narrower minded person has it easy to say everything, not to his liking, is BS.

I think , most of the time its like Pornography, I know it when I see it. ;)

Hello O, Glad to see you!