I second the recommendation on the Rockport Mira - was one of the three best rooms I heard at THE show in LA when I was there. It looks like an unassuming speaker and doesn't draw attention to itself - quite tasteful looking. Sonically, it is so capable and balanced in every way. It would probably be my choice in a sub $20k speaker.
Because of your strange room shape/size, investing in a room equalizer like the Copland, Rives or Parc would probably be a good way to allocate your budget, rather than spend it all on speakers. |
I have the Andra 2 with my Pass Labs X 350.5.
The Andra's have a dynamite piano black finish |
Amen to Fredericks comment. How on earth can you get a pair of custom speakers made in that price range and not know EXACTLY how they will sound in your room. Crazy.
By the way, you really should have a listen to the Sonus faber GUARNERI MEMENTO's for a delicious and seductive intro into music making at it's finest. For your room they would fit like a glove and look absolutely stunning in the gloss graphite finish. Then get a REL Studio sub to finish it all off. Bigger is not always better. You should of course find a dealer that you can work with and set whatever you are getting up and helping to find an amplifier that works with whatever it is you are going to end with. |
I agree with Sbank.
There are many (but let's just say ten for argument's sake) companies that are at the top of the hill in speaker fabrication. You have already listened to a few and have found some don't suit your taste. How the heck are you going to design and build just one pair that you know the other companies haven't been able to build and reproduce music the way you want? Impossible.
Take the $16K and 'invest' it in Las Vegas. You'll have better luck and those odds suck. |
Lots of folks can surprise us with knowledge and understanding of speakers. But without passion, resources, business acumen, manufacturing skills, patience and luck, they will just amount to one of hundreds who've gone out of business building speakers. If you go down that road, assume that 75% of your price has been gambled, because resale value is almost nil, regardless of the speakers' merits. That puts the achievements of Avalon, Merlin, Magnepan, Vandersteen, Thiel, et al in rarified air. Even often immortalized desginers like Albert Von Schweikert have folded their companies. IMHO, if you want custom work, redo your kitchen. Cheers,
Spencer |
Well in my search I'm going to audition Avalons in the next couple of weeks. An interesting turn of events is that I've found somebody that's really surprised me with his knowledge and understanding of speakers. We've been talking today about building a very efficient speaker system built just for me. |
Aerial 10Ts can spoil you because you can pretty much
plop them anywhere and get a friendly sound without
too much boom/sizzle/glare/shrieking/etch or other
audio 4-letter-words. Wilsons and others take a lot more care.
I mention this because I also had the 10Ts driven by the Pass X350 (nice liquid, rounded vocals, a bit small, but fine anyway).
If you're buying new,
you could try to audition some of the speakers that offer home trials where you pay only for shipping if you return them.
Watt Puppies are a completely different experience from the Aerials.
(I went from the 10Ts to the WP6s for a while.) |
In the right setup, Wilsons can be amazing with their high resolution and the way they hang images in 3D space. Out of all the Wilsons, the Sophias have the advantage of being the smallest and (relatively) easiest to move into optimum position.
BUT!
Wilson speakers came out of Dave Wilson's need for better playback monitors. They are revealing first, musical second. In a professional setting or a no-compromise dedicated listening room, they can be stunning; compromise their placement and room treatment, and you won't be enjoying them so much.
The problem you have here is that you gravitate toward no-holds-barred ruthlessly revealing speakers, while you need to make a concession to placement and decor, the very factors that make ultra high-res speakers unpleasant to listen to.
Placement of any speakers is important, but some more than others, and Wilsons more than most, which is why the purchase of any Wilson speakers includes in-home setup and placement by a factory-trained dealer.
Have you given a listen to any Sonus Faber speakers? They are gorgeous-looking, beautifully made, unfailingly musical, and yet provide a far greater level of detail and resolution than one would expect of "pretty" speakers. The newer "Cremona M" floorstander is relatively modest in size, very full range, and made of hand-placed staves of honey-stained maple, with black accents.
Sonus Fabers are very natural-sounding, but plenty dynamic, and fairly time-coherent. many of their models come with adjustable height feet to adjust the slant of the front panel for best time coherence.
And I guess that's MY long-winded way of saying I also agree with Spencer Bank. |
I agree with Spencer Bank. |
Good advice from Sbank. It would be a pity to spend big bucks and not get good sound because of placement issues. Aside from size, the suggestion of the Vandersteen has the advantage of the speaker offering some flexibility as to bass response should you require placement close to a wall.
Again, I suggest looking into the Gradient Revolution because of its great flexibility and intended placement close to back walls and corners. |
Oh man, listen long & hard before buying the Wilsons. Many threads you can search w/ pros & cons, but safe to say that opinions on them are greatly debated.
As a former Avalon owner, I agree that they look great. They are sensitive to matching electronics, but I'm guessing your Pass amp would be great match, if not overkill.
Personally, I prefer others already suggested: Merlins, Veritys, Vandersteen5A, but to each his own. Please consider room placement requirements of whatever you're considering. A great speaker against a wall usually isn't a great speaker anymore; don't spend and fool yourself. Cheers,
spencer |
does your wife have an aversion to speakers over 5 feet high and 18 inches wide ? i am reluctant to suggest panel speakers because of the potential of displeasure with the size.
is there anything you can do to get her to modify her opinion ? perhaps offer her something in return to allow you to purchase the speaker of your choice ?? |
Don't like the looks. I've narrowed my choice down to 3: Avalon Indra, Wilson Sophia2 or Watt\Puppy 7-8. Anyone whose compared these systems, I'd be very interested in their opinion. My nearest Avalon dealer is a couple of hours away. |
You should also try listening to the Verity Parsifal Ovation. |
Take a listen to the Rockport Technologies Mira. IMHO, this is the best speaker under 20K, but make no mistake, I am quite a bit biased since I do own a pair. I also used to own a pair of 10T's, the Mira's are much better in every way and compare favorably to the WP8's. http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/rockport_technologies_mira.htm |
I heard the Classic Audio Reproduction T-3s powered by Atmasphere's OTL amps and the combination is fantastic. I know looks are in the eye of the beholder, but, it does not strike me as being high on the WAF scale, particularly give the size of these speakers.
Perhaps, an appropriate bribe could result in a more favorable rating -- factor that into your price range. |
I'm surprised that you don't think the Sapphires are physically attractive. I love Dynaudio speakers, and I find the Sapphire to be the most attractive speaker they've ever produced. I haven't read the whole thread, but if you were choosing just based on physical appearance, what would you choose? |
Geared4me, I've already auditioned the Studio2's and was extremely disappointed in their performance. The Studio2's were the number one speaker on my list but after the audition I wouldn't touch them. I'm looking to audition Avalon Indras in the near future. Somebody else recommended the Usher Be-10s to me but I think those are a bit big to go into my room. |
I've been running the Classic Audio Reproductions T3, equipped with the field coil drivers. So far it is the best combination of characteristics I have heard in a loudspeaker.
97db, 20Hz-45Khz, 16 ohms, ultra transparent (rivals any ESL), easy to drive (a 60 watt amp cannot be clipped in most rooms), easy placement (my set is 6" from the rear wall). Nice finish. Any my girlfriend really likes them :) |
Used Salon 2s are in your price range and have appeared here several times lately. |
...I recommend you to listen to these speakers:
1. Thiel 3.7.
2. Revel studio 2.
3. Wilson Sophia2.
4. Avalon indra.
|
Does WAF include placement in the room of the speaker? Most speakers sound their very best well away from back walls and sides. Some are designed to be a bit more flexible in placement.
I thought that one of the better sounding speakers that was not excessively large in size, and more importantly, worked very well close to a back wall or corner, is the Gradient Revolution. I heard these in a small room backed up against the back wall and they sounded pretty good in such difficult setups. Audionote speakers are good in that respect too, but, they are pretty ugly looking.
Some of the Sonus Faber speakers are reasonably compact, very nicely finished and can (though not optimally) be placed fairly close to walls.
The Magico minis would also fit the bill, except for the price. These sounded very good to me and surprisingly "BIG" for such a compact speaker.
Another compact, nice sounding speaker, is the Gryphon Cantata. I believe it is no longer a current model, but, perhaps there is a suitable replacement model or you can find a used or demo pair. |
The Verity Parsifal are mightly fine and highly resolving, but not to the same extent as the Merlins; they do provide a bit more impactful bass, though the gap in that area has narrowed with the latest version of the VSMs. To my ears, Verity and Merlin are world class speakers. |
What about the used pair of Joseph Audio Pearl's currently being listed? He has them WAY overpriced, but one day he might come down. I think they are a good-looking pair of speakers and you can change out the side walls for different colors or looks?
Speakers are being made thinner, visually at the expense of depth. Be careful, a 24" deep cabinet really needs a lot of room.
Why not stick with Aerial and get the Model 9? It's more a lateral move but much nicer in appearance. Or, I second a Verity Audio Parcifal. |
I think the Merlin VSM-MXe have a very high WAF, are smallish so they don't dominate a room, and are perfectly suited to a room your size. While it is down 2db at 33Hz, that seems to be a good amount of bass for a room your size, with the a great high end with the Dynaudio Esotar D330A tweeter. It is an elegant two-way that is pretty hard to beat in my book - and a lot less than 16K. It is also easy to drive and will sound fantastic with a high quality 30-50 watt tube amp, but they work great (and plenty loud) with the Pass XA-30.5 if you want to stick with SS - it is Class A, but runs a lot cooler than the Aleph did. It can be hard to think of a small two-driver speaker as an end-all speaker, but the Merlins is a very well sorted out speaker; worth a listen.
Incidentally, in the Bound for Sound review of the Merlin by Martin DeWulf where he said "'My review of the original VSM was published in 1995; it was a good speaker. But, there was no way of knowing that over the next 12 years, Bobby would refine, build upon and essentially perfect that speaker until it reached a prominence where with some confidence I can call it "the best loudspeaker ever made."' the amp he was using for the review was the Pass X350.5. I get nervous about any claims that anything is "the best", but it is a speaker that has kept me happy a long time and I'm unlikely to change (you'll hear that from a lot of Merlin owners). |
and this amp - used or almost new goes for around 10K Tannoys new or open box - around 6K. Wonderful system......good looking too. |
|
I don't think I'm going to go with a ClassA amp again. They run really hot. The sound is great but I'll try something new. I'm going to audition a Spectron Musician III one of these days and see what they sound like. |
The only reason to get rid of an X350 is to get an X350.5.
:) |
Have you heard the Maggie 20.1s or Soundlabs? Soundlabs should have at least 2 models in that price range.
There are some things they do that are almost impossible to match with box speakers, though of course box speakers compare much more favourably in your price range than at less. But before spending this much - you've got to at least hear the Maggie 20.1s (with proper amps) to know how they are different/similar.
Oh - and if you aren't sensitive to sweet spot size (I am) then these might be interesting:
http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/10b.htm
I've heard some of his older speakers and they do seem to outresolve every other electrostatic I've heard... That is pretty tough to do!
But main thing is to listen to 20.1s and see what you think - if you are intrigued then check out some SoundLabs and the Sanders ones as well. |
Here ya go:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1221421670 |
Your Aerial 10t are very good speaker and I think if you want to upgrade to another level you need to spend 30K+ to make a difference. Speakers in the 16K range will sound different and will not significanly better than yours.
As for WAF, this will cost you a lot because good looking and good performance speaker is very expensive and rare. I would like to get a pair as well but after trying for so many I settle with MBL 111. If looks are really important then I think I can settle with B&O 5. |
Ok, I took a tape measure and measure my room. It's 13'x19' but to the right we have another 8-9' dining area. |
Get another W - that's a better upgrade!
Sorry about the joke - how about a new Revel Ultimate Salon 1. Consider many as reference speaker in it's class.
Or MBL 111 - very different speaker but once heard you will want it. The The bass goes down to 20hz!!
Personally I suggest do not upgrade becuase of the room size is too small for any good speaker to sing unless you invest $$ into room treatment. |
The Sophia should be plenty big to fill an 11x19 listening room, even with some open architecture leading to a dining area. They only look small in a high end audio shop next to the Maxx and Alexandria. On their own, they're pretty big, weigh 160 lbs. each, and provide meaningful bass down to 29 Hz, which IME for 2-channel music is plenty for almost anything you can throw at it.
I also suspect it would be easier to get good sound in your room with the Sophia than with larger speakers which could overload your room.
As for WAF and the attraction to glossy finishes, you really can't beat Wilson Gloss. I think Sophias would stun in any number of gloss colors, such as burgundy, chrome yellow, royal blue, dove grey, etc. |
I just noticed your room size and 20Ts won't work. The sophias are the only speaker small enough for that room thats on your list. You might try a sub with them if you want deep bass. |
" I can't figure out for the life of me why people are raving about the Revels."
Most high-end equipment will sound very, very good when used in the right system. Otherwise said, synergy among speakers and electronics is crucial. Taking your experience, the Revels in one system will fail to impress, while their performance in another will explain their excellent reputation. As for my own experience, I always thought the first-generation Salons sounded lifeless, saying to myself "I don't get it", until I heard them run with a top tube amp. I then bought a pair. Getting to the heart of this, one of the most important matches is speakers, amp and speaker cables - some are reluctant to say for commercial reasons, but ask the manufacturer of whatever speaker you buy what amp and speaker cables they are particularly fond of - it will help you avoid a misfire.
In addition, everyone perceives sound differently -- what is your preference in speakers and electronics will not be for others.
If you really want to do it right, demo a pair of speakers in home for a couple of weeks before buying. If you are sold on Wilsons, remember that the Watt Puppies have strong bass (and a notorious midbass hump), and may be too much for your space -- it could be that the Sophias are the better match for an 11' x 19' room. TAS reviewer Tony Cordesman auditioned the Dynaudio Evidence ($85k) and Evidence Temptation - the $55,000 cheaper Temptation sounded better in his room, the bass matching better - he bought the Temptations. |
If you want Watt Puppy 8s, I would patiently check for one here each day. I'm sure one will show up. WPs are constantly traded here.
The JMLabs prices will be sinking I'm sure when the new Utopias come out in the fall (according to another current thread here). When the Utopia Be line came out in late 2002, JMLabs dropped their prices, with the original Utopias going from $30K to $20K (announced in big magazine ads). So if price is important to you and you have some patience and these are the speakers you want, just wait a short time. Maybe pick up some cheap box speakers here in the meantime.
Just my 2 (or 3?) cents. |
*Posted on my other thread
Ok, things are coming down to the wire. Yesterday I auditioned Wilson W/P 8's and Sophia 2's. Gorgeous, detailed sound. Excellent clarity, soundstaging. I could see how people could say it's not the most musical speaker (W/P 8's) but I loved the sound. The slam, excitement was there. I would say the Sophia's gave 90% of the sound at almost half price. I really liked the W/P 8's but at 28K they're a little bit steep. I'm shopping around right now for a new and possibly slightly used pair of Watt Puppy 8's to figure out how much damage they would be to my wallet. I'm going to take a listen to the Avalon Indra's in the next week or two and finally pull the trigger. Focal speakers are out of the running as of yesterday. For almost the same money I wold go with the Sophia 2's. The final 3 contenders are Avalon Indra's (even though I haven't heard them yet), W/p 8's and the Sophia 2's. Anybody compare these speakers side by side???? I love the dark titanium finish on Wilson's btw. Anybody have any pointers about pricing on these beasts?
I'm not the most experience audiophile in these forums but I thought the 1037Bes delivered great sound for the money even beating out the Revel Studio2s. More musical, better soundstaging to my ears with the equipment I listened to. The high frequencies were better delineated and much better bass than the Studio2s. I can't figure out for the life of me why people are raving about the Revels. I guess Harmon group stuffs the pockets of all these magazine editors. |
Used Aerial 20Ts are in your price range and should satisfy for a long time. Much nicer looking but also large. |
Thanks for the info,getting the feeling your almost sold on those Focal.Remember they might sound different in your room.Can you take them home for awhile?If not I second Shadorne.Get some Merlins and a sub along with a SS amp.Perfect for that size room.Good luck,Bob |
Take into consideration the room
Why settle on performance with Bass and soundstage transparancy when you can have it all in your room with the Vandersteen 5A in Ebony or Kawazinga Gloss these speakers
deliver it all.
Cheers Johnnyr |
Baraery:
It seems like you found a "house" sound that you like.... Focal. It might be best to stick with them. With your new budget the Focal Alto Utopias Be is in your price range. Many dealers are giving big discounts (20% or more) on the line because they are changing soon.... but then you might just want to wait. At least if you buy into the whole latest and greatest thing.
How did the tweeter integrate on the Nova Utopias? Was it more integrated than the 1037Be?
Again I listened to many speakers and was very very close to buying the 1037be and was thinking about getting the Alto (out of my budget but I would have financed) looking for better bass than the 1037bes. Then I listened to the Thiel 3.7.... Focal has not crossed my mind sense. The 3.7s are better IMO on every level than the 1037be. |
Other speakers to consider: Eggleston Works Andra 2; Wilson Sophia 2; Usher Be 10 or Be 20, Vandersteen 5A, Von Schweikert VR5 SE (used); Wilson Watt Puppy 8 (used); and, if you have the room and amplification - Magnepan MG20.1 I have heard all the speakers except the Vandersteens which have received near universal praise. Good luck on your search. |
Alright guys, just auditioned the Revel Studio2s yesterday at my local dealer. He was running them with an all Burmeister setup, very expensive monoblock, amp, pre and cd player. Unfortunately for me he made me listen to the Nova Utopias (Focal) before the Revels. It wasn't even a close contest. The Revels sounded like Bose speakers compared to the Novas. Extremely 3 dimensional soundstage, strings vocals were much better on the Nova Utopia. I guess more money does buy you better sound. As I was walking out though with all my plans screwed I saw that he carried the 1037BE and asked him to hook those up just for fun. Nice speaker. Definitely from the same family as the Utopias. Obviously the bass wasn't as powerful as the Novas, the soundstage was also a little less 3 dimensional but everything else sounded great. Now I'm in a quandary. All along I was planning on getting the Studio2s now there is no way that I would.
Any other ideas as to speakers to audition in this price range. I'm raising the budget to a maximum of 20K. |
Commenting upon some of the above items:
Generally, I would not spend all that money on speakers for a medium to small-size room that will also serve as a dining room. I would budget $10k for speakers and spend the rest on the other parts of your system.
Beauty is of course perceived by everyone differently, but I saw the EgglestonWorks The Nine last year at CES and thought they looked really sharp and was impressed with how compact they are (while still basically being a full-range speaker). I do not want to comment about the sound, as I heard them at a show. Audiogon member Talon4 is a dealer.
The Studio2 is appropriate for a room of your size -- as a former Salon owner, I cannot imagine a pair of Salon2's in an 11' x 19' room. I think the new Revels look like cheesey Canadian speakers, incidentally, but that's just my opinion.
I have not heard the Dynaudio Sapphires, but I have owned Dynaudios and found them to be superb speakers -- I have no doubt that the Sapphires are likewise superb and they will be impressive in the flesh, as they are very well built. Someone mentioned the C-2's and C-4's. The C-2's would be good for your room and are great speakers, but most people find the looks to be laughable (I'm one of them). In terms of bass performance, the Sapphires would be about as much speaker as you would want in a room that size.
The Aerial 9 will impress you with the quality of the cabinet finish (about as close to Sonus Faber as you will find) and they would likely work well in your room.
You will miss the smooth sound of your Pass amp, but as someone who ran high-powered monoblock tube amps for six years, I appreciate the concern about heat. |
Check out the PBN Audio Montana KAS being sold by AudioGon memeber, Kenan. You can buy a demo pair from The Sound Station for $14,500. You won't be sorry. |
Now I'm debating as to whether to move up to the Salon2's; much better bass response than the Studios. |
Avalon Indra has been favorably commented upon in the threads, and deserves a listen. |
Take a listen to the Gradient Helsinki 1.5 or Pioneer S-2EX, both $7.5K, and put the rest of your budget toward the Spectron. |
