A challenge to the "measurement" camp

OK, where did you "copy and paste" from?  You don't even understand what you're posting.  I am telling you david there is no such thing as "isolation".  You are just using layman language for electrical engineering that is not even accurate.  

You can google all you want, you know how to use Google right? Google all you want, you will never find that text anywhere on the web because I just wrote that quickly off the top of my head. May want to clue in at some point that one of us knows what they are doing .. It’s not you.

"layman language" ... hardly. Inaccurate? ... hardly. Which is really rather hilarious as you wouldn’t know if it was or not.

Atadavid, do this simple experiment.

Why don’t you do build a transformer and try to capture energy from the AC power line in your backyard. You will get arrested because you will cause fluctuation in power on the main line. What you do in the secondary line will affect the main line. They will find out you are stealing the power.

There is no isolation. You just copy and paste from somewhere without understanding.

May want to clue in at some point that one of us knows what they are doing

Did you get called out for not knowing the meaning of "rectification"?  But it seems like you do now finally.

Given they have 3% or more losses locally or more, I could likely tap into the power lines, but given the lines here are buried, they generally frown upon digging without a permit.

You parroting of power transfer without realizing all the functions of isolation that a transformer provides, not to isolation of the high frequencies from intentional power line filtering, leakage inductance, and frequency dependent hysteresis of the core, etc.

What's totally weird is your incessant need to justify the bad engineering of the PS Audio product and/or their exaggeration w.r.t. to the cable.

As someone pointed out on another thread, and it makes a good an obvious point, lab power supplies, of which we have several Agilent models, can maintain output voltages perturbations in the millivolt range on somewhat noisy AC lines without any issue, and it uses a standard power cord... yet an expensive AC regenerator needs an expensive power cord to work.

Hey pandy, since you reneged on your so called "challenge", why don't you explain to everyone here, the blocks in an AC regenerator, and better yet, why don't you tell us what power supply topology is used for each section of the AC regenerator.

 not to isolation of the high frequencies from intentional power line filtering, leakage inductance, and frequency dependent hysteresis of the core, etc.

It's called filtering, not isolation.  Please be precise.  Again you're using layman term.  There is a big difference between isolation and filtering.

The transformer may filter out some high frequency component, but DEFINITELY not isolating. 

There are a lot of power supply you don't know and you're just speaking out of your a$$. 

Okay, pandy ... tell me what isolation is ... I can wait.
In your own words, not a cut and paste, what is isolation in the framework of a power supply.

p.s. I know you are not an engineer, so I am getting out my popcorn, this should be good.  Remember, purely your own words.

tic ... tic ... tic ... tic ... tic ... tic

tic ... tic ... tic ... tic ... tic ... tic

L😄😁L!!! You have serious mental issues AtDavid! I am seriously beginning to think you are THE Ethan 

.... says the guy trolling me at 7:05am.  whatshisname, you have some serious issues.   Why don't you tell everyone what almost all your audio posts on forums are about whatshisname? .... can anyone guess?

Do you ever sleep sunshine? LOL!!! How many trolls do you have in your team?

I thought andy2 was considerably smarter than me but for one type I’ve heard of toroidal isolation transformers. Maybe he’s trolling like noname does. 

Trolling? David, Robert, you’ve got more posts than anyone, your tic tic is very fifth grader mentality. Your need to attack everyone even when they have more knowledge than you just makes you look insecure. You don’t seem to understand the purpose and design of blind tests. You Havnt convinced anyone of anything other than you’re just in the forums to troll. Now that, you’ve done a great job of. But as others mentioned, it does seem as if you’ve copy and pasted from another source, and your comprehension of the subject matter does point in that direction. Leave the expertise to the real experts, and just try to have a discussion. I don’t believe you know how to accomplish that though, you seem to need to preach

speedbump6,

"glupson, when you buy a pair of shoes, don’t you also wear socks with them?"

Not all the time. Socks also come usable "out of the box", I do not need to buy another one.

We all have different approaches, but if they tried to sell me half-baked electronic product, I would feel cheated. Unless it is, for example, something in kit.

Some socks are uncomfortable, they have the ridge inside that just bugs the dickens out of me. Some are too thin and the shoe wobbles, some are too thick and it’s hard to get the shoe on. Some don’t fit well on the leg and slide down to my ankle. So many varieties and choices, some materials feel more comfortable than others, some make my feet sweaty. 

"Some don’t fit well on the leg and slide down to my ankle."

Imagine if the manufacturer made a suggestion to put a rubber band around them after you buy them.

Lol, I’ve seen that done before. 

As for power conditioner, just because you have one, does not mean the power cable does not matter.

Imagine you have a power conditioner, but your power cable is slim and tiny, it will definitely affect the performance of the power conditioner.  Therefore, you need some decent power cable.  

I can't imagine anyone dumb enough to buy a power conditioner with a "slim and tiny" power cable. Ones I've seen have a cable thick as your thumb. I had one the power cord was not removable. Company be pretty stupid to sell power conditioners with an under specification power cord. 

"Imagine you have a power conditioner, but your power cable is slim and tiny, it will definitely affect the performance of the power conditioner."

That may be relatively easy to imagine.

What is harder to imagine is why anyone would buy a power conditioner from the manufacturer who supplies an inadequate cable. Wouldn't you question the whole product and manufacturer's competence then?

What is harder to imagine is why anyone would buy a power conditioner from the manufacturer who supplies an inadequate cable

I think it's profit margin and they probably want to buyer to pay for the cable.  A good power cable can cost quite a bit of money.  

That is easily true and it is another negative point for manufacturer's credibility. It is not that they are selling those "audiophile" power conditioners at cost.

Here's a good surge protector power conditioner without MOV's . Looks like it might be to much trouble to replace their slim and tiny cable. 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SA1810--surgex-sa1810

I saw one brand that was sold with a cord at all, as they assume you will want to use a high end cord with their product

Power conditioner is no different from any other piece of audiophile equipment, the manufactures probably want to supply the cheapest possible power cables just so that they say they do.

andy2,

"... the manufactures probably want to supply the cheapest possible power cables just so that they say they do."

You really want to make those manufacturers look bad. One more negative point for them.

"I saw one brand that was sold with a cord at all, as they assume you will want to use a high end cord with their product "

That seems more fair. You know what you are getting. I mean, you know what you are not getting. They also seem to know their clientele.

More than that: I can calculate what is the cable you need for a system, by having the required length and the DF figure of the Amp.
No measurements are required.
The idea that a cable is a mystery to physics is naive. it is a part of engineering and not a roulette game. Unfortunately, most makers and cable are those easy to make (12-14 AWG) and not the right once (4-00 AWG), harder to make. Your methode, can only tell out of N (number) of measured cabels, which is better. It won’t tell you what cable you really need. Is none of the measured cabels, is among the right calculated values, you trial is no good.

a good 12 ga copper strand like THHN/Home Depot 50 ft spool, will offer equal to any speaker cable , no matter what price range. =  IOW a  12 ga copper, maybe even 14/16 ga  copper stranded,,, all will be equal to even those $50,000 speaker cables. 
They will sound identical, as per opening post,,,
Now as for interconnects,,No , not all are the same, in fact my guess is ~~most~~~ will sound different.
That said, there is no need to spend more than $50 of a  DIY interconnect that is made by the correct cable and correctly made.as I've just discovered. 
You see back in the day,,all we had were basic Radio Shak interconnects,,, ,,there was no discussion,,Now i hear Radio shak/Chinese generic interconnects as trash, next to high tech DIY interconnects. 
Summing up
1) a  nice gague stranded copper = all are identical, no class A,B,C, 
2) all interconnects are not equal/identical. Some are  Class A) superior   Class B)  pretty good and.... class C)  worthless.,,,seems to me the Class A are this new material called copper/coated with silver.
The class C are all those countless 18,20,22 gague chinese interconnects sold under thousands of names past 40 years. = worthless trash. Ebay  has countless sellers listing that trash at $50+ a set. 

10 gague is too thick, disregard, not necessary, 12 THHN is all you need, But my guess if you A/B a  12ga strand vs a  14ga , you could not tell the dif,,I perfer 12 gague as cost is the same as for the 14 gague,,, and 12 ga fits nicely in the speaker post hole. 
Same with power cord DIY, 10ga is too thick, 14ga might be OK, but ideally 12gague seems absolutely perfect in my DIY powercord. 

What thickness is right?

Well, the only cable property that matters is it's resistance.
A cable resistance equals to the material conductivity constant (cooper),
multiplied by its length (in meters) and divided by its cross section (mm sq.).
This resistance shall fit so it will be way smaller than the Amp's DF. (Output resistance). 
Usually, the Amp and length required are a given. 
So what left to play with is the thickness.
Today SS good Amps have a DF of 200 and above...
PASS LAB = 200
EMOTIVA = 400
Luxman = 700
Tube Amp have a low DF (20 and less) so it's insignificant.
D-class tend to have a DF in the thousands: as high as 4000 and more.
Tell me what is your Amp's DF and what length you need, and I'll calculate for you the optimal thickness (in # awg).

A test been conducted two years ago, by myself, and those who pioneered it, ended up very happy. The old cable (no matter how expensive it was, and some were as high as $17,000 a pair, went into storage. The DIY offered ended up (mostly) under $100.-

...some interesting reading and maybe some clarity...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/the-delusion-of-scientific-omniscience/
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/should-quantum-anomalies-make-us-rethink-reality?utm_source=pocke...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/physics-needs-philosophy-philosophy-needs-physics/

It seems refreshing articles.... Thanks

Bernardo Kastrup is in itself a new sign of the changing tides....

 And Goethe will be understood tomorrow....

There is some hope perhaps in these creepy times....

...speaking of putting math, the primary tool thingee that allows measurements to be analyzed, into perspective....

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-godels-incompleteness-theorems-work-20200714/

....which kinda implies that in the big picture things run out of precision pretty darn quick...to the point where most seemingly absolute proofs are reduced to wild-assed guesses in fairly short order ( assuming of course you are using analysis of any sort that relies on math...)...the problem that occurs when observations are reduced to theory which depends on the use of a logic type different from the observation...historically the difference between magic and scientific cosmologies ( and no, magic here doesn’t refer to hats and rabbits...one refers more to the name, and the other to the thing named...different logic types eh... )

B4, the only thing g that matters? Because you say? The only thing that matters is how it affects the sound, period. Other than the sound, why are we in this hobby. If you hear a difference worth spending the money on, then do it. If you don’t, then don’t. It completely does away with any need for measurements that in the end obviously don’t cover all the bases of why people do hear differences, and for sure isn’t going to tell you if person A is going g to like it, or person B won’t. Any more than you can measure music and tell who will like which. Measurements are good for what they do, but it’s when people try to misapply them that things get wonky. I can’t tell you how many times theories on black holes has changed over the years. And I bet will again. 

Nowadays there are some people that cannot even recognize that some set of measurements are vouched to stay non linear, because these measurements are made in a particular audio system with interacting many parts and many dimensions which imply the multiple simultaneous particular and unique embeddings of the audio system in some particular house(mechanical,electrical,and acoustical embeddings) where a change in input are in no linear relations to the change in output...

The end results for the ears being the only irrefutable proof or experience because no set of measures can tell all the story in advance...


An experiment:

If i put a piece of quartz or a piece of shungite on the central electrical panel of the house or on the transformer of an amplifier, where is the set of measures that will tell you the differences between these 2 operations at these 2 different locations and why?

My ears has told me the end results, if you want to know it, you must realize the experiment.... Even if no audio manual describe this experiment, it is a possible experiment with an end result....

Just a clue: there will not only be a variable audible effect in quality,( variable relatively to each house and each audio system) but it will be different for the quartz and the shungite, but the quartz will work the same in the 2 locations and the shungite too, confirming their own particular different power to increase or decrease the S.Q. end results for the ears...

By the way i dont sell nor buy anything, all i made are my own homemade experiments....What is the essence of my 2 last years experiments is not the purchase of a bunch of costly ready made tweaks, it is a systematic method between experiments and listening with only cheap materials and homemade simple device....

And for those ignoring the placebo methodology, an incremental, step by step positive increase in audio S.Q. extending in time with many experiments is no more a placebo, then it must be an hallucination.... But if you say that, then all audio experience is pure hallucination and even the concept of sound quality or S.Q. is a snake oil concept, and audio engineer dont need their ears no more now, only oscilloscope, db meter etc...



By the way i want to debunk the myth that Hi-Fi experience is linearly linked to the big money invested in the new electronic design component around the block....

I dont say that cables or new refined electronic design dont do a big difference, i only say the essential is not buying disparate costly tweaks, or costly cables, or costly electronic components; the essential is listening and learning how to embed in his 3 dimensions ANY audio system at any price, to make it able to work at his optimal potential....

I want to debunk the "upgrading" urge and myth as solution to audio problem and experience....

:)

My best....

First and last audiophile law:

 Before upgrading something, embed rightfully anything.....

...its just "periodical knowledge" but it should/might give pause..

A proponent of scientific perspectivism would say that because scientists put together models and theories of a phenomenon for specific purposes, and because none of those models or theories can capture all of the details of the phenomenon at once, each one is necessarily partial. A pluralist philosopher of science would say we should use all these perspectives to put together theories about the biological world that are patchwork in a way, but all the better for it.

This sounds a lot like the case of the microbiome—but these views are much more far-reaching. Scientists make models and representations of the world when they make their theories, and arguably, the inability to capture everything at once applies in many if not all scientific fields. “We believe that it is time to move beyond metaphors, and we propose a scientifically pluralist approach that focuses on characterizing fundamental biological properties of microbiomes such as heritability, transmission mode, rates of dispersal rates, and strength of local selection,” Morar and Bohannan write. “Such an approach will allow us to break out of the confines of narrow conceptual frameworks, and to guide the exploration of our complexity as chimeric beings.”

The fact that there still isn’t one “best” metaphor for grasping the microbiome might tell us something much deeper about the world—that perhaps the most promising approach to understanding it is to play with a variety of perspectives, prizing none over the others.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/what-is-the-human-microbiome-exactly?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Mr. speedbump6

I not only say so, I proved it also sounds so and it works.
Look at my thread How to select a good Speaker Cable
and see Mr. keppertup’s report of his experience with adding a #0 awg cable to the one he DIY in 2018, also following my advice, and judge. On the 2018 thread there were many who went his way and tried it out. All were very happy with results.

However, you may stick to your way of thinking and adopted some snake oil philosophy, that will cost you way more and not help at all.