A full range speaker?
pragmasi198 posts07-16-2021 10:08am The entire audible environment for Humans measure at 15Hz - 150kHz. Where do you guys get your information from? Even IF this were true 15hz - 150k hz. who really cares. Orch is 60hz-2khz. Thats all i listen to is classical. |
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The entire audible environment for Humans measure at 15Hz - 150kHz. As pointed out - the ear drum cannot pick up those frequencies. Humans process sound utilizing more of the 30+K hair cells located within the ear which relay information to an extraordinary amount of nerve fibers within our nervous system that provide this info to the brain - which processes things like frequency, waveform, pressure rate, time and location - to what we actually hear. Everything counts, everything matters. The only Speaker I know of that covers this range is The Lansche 8.2 15Hz - 150kHz. a couple of other manufactures that measure in in the fuller range are Marteen and Verity. |
@mijosytn, Yes, the fs is 18.4 Hz. Acoustic Elegance is something of a ’Rolls Royce" brand of woofers for many different apps actually (sealed, IB, OB, etc) b/c John, up there in Michigan, takes the time to personally tune the design of each woofer for that particular app and that app only. He doesn’t go in for designing ’dual or multi purpose’ woofers...or off the shelf - he makes everything in-house to his custom spec. Full specs are here:http://http//www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/AE/IB18HT#8%CE%A9 I have the "Apollo" version here:http://aespeakers.com/shop/ibht-woofers/ib18ht/ Gotta laugh sometimes when I visit IB sites and start perusing through the mass graves of the unfortunate souls who have gone before and had fearlessly waded into the swamp waters of IB territory, having heard past tales of glory to be had on the cheap and armed with little more than a tape measure and a skill saw. The sites (like cult of the infinitely baffled and others) are strewn with examples of people who’ve made all kinds of ill-advised major surgery to their homes in an effort to DIY and ’save some money’. In the extreme some of them all but destroyed the resale value of their homes(!) And most severely underestimated the vibration problem. But, I salute those who posted their horror stories and have contributed to my sobriety of mind before taking on this project of mine. So, going in, I’ve held few if any illusions about how easy an undertaking this all is. I’ve had the last 2 yrs to think things all the way through as much as I could even before I bought anything, let alone broke ground for construction. Many advantages in going for a standalone structure, don’t have to worry about sympathetic transmission to the rest of my house. It will be built on a concrete slab with the system front wall made of concrete block, all interior walls, floor, ceiling will be made of 2x12’s with walls and ceiling having at least a 3" space between them and the damped metal shell (room within a room construction). There will be the unexpected challenges I’m sure, but I will have to allow for that and come up with solutions as I go. The 18" woofers should be ok. I’ve been using them in my living room in an OB config and their behavior so far has been exemplary. I know you’re referring to the sag as they age, but I’ve intended all along to rotate them once a year to keep the spider material from wearing asymmetrically over the life of the woofer. A calculated risk, as it were, as to whether or not that works, but I’m thrilled with their sound right now, we’ll see. |
mijostyn @cleeds , that is exactly what I wrote. That thump is not the note it is an associated percussive sound and I think that is pretty obvious.You also think it "obvious" that the percussive strike is lower in frequency than the fundamental: You have to forget about fundamentals. Things like the thumb striking low E produce a thump that is below the fundamental. Percussion will do this also.That is completely mistaken, as can easily be shown on even a simple modern software program. In other threads, you've reported on your need to use rumble filters in your system to prevent your woofers from "flapping." It's increasingly apparent that something is wrong with your system; you're inclined to accept it because you believe those low frequencies are inherent and filtering is the only solution. (While that approach works for you, I've always preferred to tackle LF disturbances at the source.) |
@cleeds , that is exactly what I wrote. That thump is not the note it is an associated percussive sound and I think that is pretty obvious. Oldhvymec has it right. There is a visceral aspect to live music that is missing in most HiFi systems. People will try to get it by turning up the volume way too high. This does not work and blows out your ears. This aspect is coming from bass below 40 Hz. Reproducing these frequencies in residential settings is difficult and it is easy to "damage" the the rest of the music trying. I believe this is why there are such polar opinions on the subject. @ivan_nosnibor , interesting project! You need drivers with a free air resonance below 20 Hz. Infinite baffle speakers are much more efficient but the enclosures are large and larger enclosures tend to have more resonance issues. I know one person who mounted the drivers in his floor so that the basement was the enclosure. I did not like it because there was a floor resonance that ruined bass detail. He needed a stiffer floor. I toyed with the idea of mounting drivers in the front wall which in my situation is an outside wall. Glad I did not. If you go outside when the system is running that wall buzzes and rattles like crazy. The Hardy Plank siding is creating most if not all of the racket. Fortunately, I used staggered stud sound proof walls so you can't hear it inside. I used the same construction in the master bedroom so the kids could not hear mom and dad having fun:-) I am not sure that 18" drivers are the way to go. I would use multiple smaller drivers. I would use two of these instead of one 18" driver. https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-UM15-22-15-Ultimax-DVC-Subwoofer-2-ohms-Per-Co-295-514 It is easier to control a smaller cone. A cone's motion has to be pistonic. Larger cones have a tendency to move asymmetrically. 15" drivers are plenty big enough. I use 12" drivers to keep the individual enclosures small enough to fit in my situation. The new system will use 8 drivers. Dayton subwoofers are excellent and a great value. I have been very pleased with them. I got two Morel drivers and was not impressed. I sent them back. |
I’m getting around the ’crappy sounding sub’ problem by going infinite baffle bass (a pair of Acoustic Elegance HTIB 18" woofers) in a somewhat custom built room, the construction of which is on hold due to building prices for now. But, I’m really sold on IB. All the benefits of open baffle bass sound, but without that one, single drawback when it comes to slam and impact. I was running out of room in my home for my system as I kept growing the rig. Was also looking for a workroom space to maybe start my own business. Adding onto the house seemed cheaper than moving, and simply building a metal outbuilding and finishing it out on the inside was even cheaper than adding on. With the equity in my home, I will get a 21.5’ L, 17’ W, 11.5’ H interior listening room with a 1400 cu ft workroom on the other side of the system’s front wall, that wall being made from cinder block to handle the reactionary forces from mounting the 18-inchers directly in the front wall, using the workroom as the rear enclosure. But, I love how neatly IB sidesteps All the traditional problems of putting a woofer in a box, most of which stem from the air pressure issues fighting against the woofer, regardless of which direction it’s moving in. Completely free pistonic movement that doesn’t ever require anything extra in the way of motor structure, amp power, enclosure size, distortion control, cost or anything else. IB bass works perfectly, well..."right out of the box", uh..to coin a phrase... Looking at solid, in-room response down to 10 Hz, at the lp, as well. |
My subs are a pair of two subs in opposition boxes, an attempt to correct drivers out of position without servos. KEF R 400B’s. They say 10”, but I don’t think they are that, they certainly don’t measure that. They are completely room position dependent, more than most, designed to be placed on two different walls with the drivers 90 degrees to the wall. Properly placed, they are quite the performers. They are going out to my studio in the future and will be replaced with either Rythmik’s or REL’s. They don’t have to be large, just precise in the house. The KEF’s will give me all the slam I need, dare I say physical abuse? In my studio which is a smaller room, detached from the house. |
Good Lord OP I had to visit the (open but closed to any SS person) Social Security office today. I'm not kidding ONLY people who don't have a SS card could get a face to face
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Government is getting more weirder each and every day. I could say more, but I don't want to get banned via cancel default. |
1994 Olympic Stadium Pink Floyd Sorrow. Massive vibration. The bones in my ears were vibrating. The whole stadium was shaking. I agree with the above comments about feeling the music. It doesn’t take that much to feel the waves but it’s not always practical in a domestic environment- but It’s fun to try to blend the two. what size drivers on the subs? I’ve used 13’s. 18’s how much better? |
Good Lord OP I had to visit the (open but closed to any SS person) Social Security office today. I'm not kidding ONLY people who don't have a SS card could get a face to face appointment. I almost went into riot mode.. I'm a EASY going guy.. I like having fun.. I didn't today AT ALL GD, MF, SOBs $hit! I had to put a nitro pill under the ol tongue. Got me cookin' I almost started bleeding out of my eyes again.. It use to happen when I'd pick up an engine block or something every now and them.. |
An aural and external exciter and a, oh what’s the word I’m looking for???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, you are now aware , which many still sleep. Is there such a driver that can produce music, which elevates the senses to some sort of mystical , Elesusian Mystery Religious experience. Where the sound waves float so effortlessly, so magically through the air molecules, where the speaker itself disappears and we are embraced by this wave of pure bliss, and we become united by this pure high fidelity, , thus losing our identity in this Mystical Oness of Beauty. . I should think this is possible. |
@oldhvymech We have been talking about the multi sensory experience of listening to music; aural and tactile. The speaker, to reproduce, or should I say convey, the live experience. An aural and external exciter and a, oh what’s the word I’m looking for??? Ah, blunt force trauma on the low end and a way to, "cook?" your skin on the high end? 😉 https://www.physicscentral.com/explore/poster-coffee.cfm |
OP AGAIN you cannot hear a sub frequency, you're not getting it.. YOU feel it.. What you call confrontational, I call educational. WORDS count and proper nomenclature. I clown ALL the time, does it really bother YOU to be corrected or do you just want to continue to SAY your hearing when in fact your FEELING something.. Honestly I think you got who is confronting who backwards.. Maybe I am a little brash.. Let me tip toe away.. LOL YOU got to be kidding.. Romp, pass gas, belly laugh, knee slapping.. Semi regards, 6 out of 10 on the regard scale we'll see how it goes.. :-) |
mijostyn It is not an undertone cleeds. It is another low frequency sound that accompanies the note.Here's what you wrote: You have to forget about fundamentals. Things like the thumb striking low E produce a thump that is below the fundamental. Percussion will do this also.A note related to but lower in pitch than the fundamental is an undertone. A note related to but higher in pitch than the fundamental is an overtone. There is no gray area. The transient effect of percussion is higher in pitch than the LF fundamental. (That's why it is so readily localizeable.) Undertones don't typically exist in music or nature. You might want to consider the undertones you're having in relation to your woofer flapping problem. |
It is not an undertone cleeds. It is another low frequency sound that accompanies the note. Like a rim shot with a snare drum, the stick striking the rim is a different sound than the stick head hitting the skin. Why is it that you so like to miss interpret what I say. My typing and spelling stink but other people do not seem to have trouble understanding what I say. |
mijostyn You have to forget about fundamentals. Things like the thumb striking low E produce a thump that is below the fundamental. Percussion will do this also.Huh? Unlike harmonics ("overtones") that occur naturally in music and nature, undertones generally do not. You've previously noted that your audio system requires a subsonic filter to avoid your woofers "flapping," so once again I suggest you examine what is going on there that is amiss. |
pragmasi196 posts07-14-2021 6:43amThis may be useful for some - here’s a Sound on Sound page with a link to a frequency chart in the top right corner. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just took a pic on my CP and blew it up to read. Man I tell you, ~~~The real meat of the muisc starts at 150hz~~~~ Sure the low string on the cello is 60hz, THE LOWEST NOTE that is,, = rarely played. ~~~~ The music starts at 160hz~~~~ Which completely validates my strong belief wide bands are the bomb. You take + have your Wilson.s Wide band is the only speaker I can listen to. Why?? All the music is represented in all its fullest richest, deepest, colors. With zero coration. zero fatigue. Wison’s $360G’s..,,oh its full range all right,, but also full of something else, called deep coloration and distortions. |
You have to forget about fundamentals. Things like the thumb striking low E produce a thump that is below the fundamental. Percussion will do this also. Music and venues also breath. There is a lot that happens below 40 Hz that provides the sense of a live performance. Without it you will never feel as if you are at a live performance. Many people give up on this issue thinking that HiFi's can't possibly do this. Bad assumption. They certainly can. It takes the right tonal balance, imaging and low bass to pull it off. William53, it is much harder to control a large cone, to keep them moving in a straight line and not flexing. I prefer multiple smaller drivers. The effect is the same with less distortion. My new subs will use a total of 8 12" drivers. |
pragmasi196 posts07-14-2021 6:43amThis may be useful for some - here's a Sound on Sound page with a link to a frequency chart in the top right corner. Fundamental notes are within the range of 16Hz to 9kHz, with harmonics going much further up in frequency. If you don't listen to a lot of pipe organ music then a lower bound of 30Hz will include all the fundamentals ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Intuitively I figured there was not much below say 40hz, And this chart shows the truth of the fq range of clasical symphony orchesra. This explains why I can not accepta dome tweeter for my classical muisc. There is too many notes bombarding this crucial region for a 3/4 inch voice coil to handle. For those who listen to mostly classical music, your dome tweeter is not **delivering the goods*** You need to go wide band to have a orchestra symphony/chamber sound **Live**. For jazz fans, the dome tweeter is acceptable. But why not go wide band, this way you get your jazz and classical voiced beautifully. I just do not see any more need for dome tweeters, They served us well these past 50 years, its time to let them go. |
william53b
Some audiophiles are obsessed with this **fantasy* 20hz-40hz region.I'm not sure why you think achieving good LF is an obsession or fantasy. This range represents only 1% of the actual music. = There is nothing thereThere's more there than you realize. Once you've heard it it's difficult to forsake - LF is the foundation of the music, imo. |
I’m settling for 18” short throw paper cone, extremely light and ridged, right now in my studio. And at about ⅓ power it feels perfect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'll consder looking at your 18 inch woofer, Also Lii has some high sens 15 inch woofers on the cheap, like $300 a PAIR!!! I will also conisder those as a possibility. I have no idea what the bass will be with the 8 inch wide band. The lab claims 20hz. If it is true the speaker goes down to 20hz, I feel no need to bring in any 15 inch/18 inch sub woofer. Now it will all be out of balance. Besides, my room is only 10x12/8 ceiling. A 15 or 18 will not work. For a 15 or 18 woofer, one needs at least 20x20x10/,minimum |
mijostyn4,659 posts07-14-2021 7:10amdjones, a rising response from 100 Hz down to 20 Hz with 20 Hz up 6 dB does not produce fat bass. Fat bass is produced by a peak in the 80 to 160 Hz region. Pushing the response up at 20 Hz gives you that sense of a live performance at less than ear shattering levels. Push it too high and the bass becomes disjointed, you know you are listening subwoofers. You should never know you are listening to subwoofers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yet another lzaer guided missle. I mean this post really nails it. Subs are *boomy** = un-musical, = anti=musical = anti high fidelity, Bug deal your sub goes to 10hz, I could care less. its Your subs 80-160hz region that makes ** fat* *Ugly* *Boomy* bass distortion, = YUCKKKKyyyy I HATE subs. 40hz is really all you want, as pragmasi has very convincingly shown and proved. Troel pretty much says the same thing about his dual W18's per channel MMT speakers. **paraphrasing **although it does not go below the 40hz, it SEEMS as though the bass hits well below 40hz** A 6.5 midwoofer will have a superior 80hz-160 hz voicing, cleaner, clearer vs a sub. Some audiophiles are obsessed with this **fantasy* 20hz-40hz region. This range represents only 1% of the actual music. = There is nothing there Why go chasing this region employing all sorts of crappy bass woofers?? Get over it. |
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@motzartfan It’s fairly simple in the end, the elusive balanced tone. Driver relationship and harmonic fidelity are more dependent on surface area than ability to reproduce a particular tone at a geometric relationship to surface area. Your sub surface area and your woofers relative relationship are more important than your subs ability to reproduce it’s lowest coherent frequency. In order to couple the two you should consider the Golden Ratio math equivalency relationship to produce natural lower extension to the main speakers. Buying a bigger sub, surface area wise, with a lower power amp, and having to throttle it back is preferable to a smaller driver size with a bigger amp; all punch and no depth. All drivers have unbelievable turbulence in the cone area, and smaller drivers magnify that by needing a greater X-max to reproduce a particular tone. Ideally, a 10” woofer should have a 20.1” sub to mathematically couple, sans room effects. I’m settling for 18” short throw paper cone, extremely light and ridged, right now in my studio. And at about ⅓ power it feels perfect. |
djones, a rising response from 100 Hz down to 20 Hz with 20 Hz up 6 dB does not produce fat bass. Fat bass is produced by a peak in the 80 to 160 Hz region. Pushing the response up at 20 Hz gives you that sense of a live performance at less than ear shattering levels. Push it too high and the bass becomes disjointed, you know you are listening subwoofers. You should never know you are listening to subwoofers. |
This may be useful for some - here's a Sound on Sound page with a link to a frequency chart in the top right corner. Fundamental notes are within the range of 16Hz to 9kHz, with harmonics going much further up in frequency. If you don't listen to a lot of pipe organ music then a lower bound of 30Hz will include all the fundamentals e.g. if you mostly listen to rock music low B on a 5/6 string bass is 30Hz and you'll hear everything a 22" bass drum has to offer from around 55Hz up. Providing you have a loudspeaker that will play low enough the room will dominate the frequency response below the low 100s of Hertz. As loudspeaker placement is key to getting the best low frequency response it can be beneficial to allow one or more sub woofers to take on this duty. In a large, acoustically controlled space this is not so much of a problem and it matters less if the low frequencies are coming from the same cabinet as the bass, mid and high. The high frequency response is bounded by our ability to hear and 20kHz is well outside of this range assuming most of us are beyond our teenage years. There may well be recorded content above this arbitrary limit but I won't be able to hear it and so I don't miss it if it's not reproduced. So for me 30Hz-20kHz is fine and I'm not sure I'd notice too much if it was a smaller range than that. I build equipment (not loudspeakers) to exceed 20Hz to 20kHz because that is the defacto standard. |
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I think the the 20's are the domain of plate amps. Some manufacturers are now including them in their full range speakers to drive the big woofers. Something I have seen that seems like a good idea is a built in high pass filter on a preamp. This is something that should be a given, as all that comes from passing tones lower than your speakers can reproduce is distortion, and wasted power. What's the point of your amp receiving that info and wasting energy trying to reproduce it if your speaker can’t reproduce it? I think the Parasound Halo has that, although some people may frown on that as being marginally worthy of being lumped in with audiophile equipment. But I’m more like Steve Gutenberg and Herb Richert in my inclusiveness of trying to find a decent system for people that can only afford say a grand on their system. But I digress… |
I have my full range for the moment, thanks. What I'm wondering is what you define that as, and why, and speaker mentions are optional. In opposition to speaker manufacturers saying anything below 60hz, depending on manufacturer, can be full range. Looking for personal statements so that we can see what people think that is. When I was younger, the first full Range speakers I heard were K-Horns, and after that I started to realize that a lot of floor standing full range speakers were just really large bookshelf speakers… |
Your in room response is what matters not the anechoic. Revel Salon 2 are close-mic down 4db at 20hz but UP 3db at 20hz in room response. https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements The JTR Noesis 215RT is another passive that can do full range. You don’t want flat down or below 20hz it sounds like crap unless you like exaggerated boomy bass in music or have a dead room without boundary reinforcement. |
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@douglas_schroeder @millercarbon I agree with your brief assessment, as well as Miller Carbon's most recent comment, as I think they are parts of the generalized conclusion we can draw that is: We don’t just hear with our ears, we hear with our bodies. Remember Bone Phones? I wasn't really aware of that on the upper range, until this post and responses; how else can we explain the effect that truly full range sound reproduction is obvious, and yet inexplicable? I can’t hear much past 12khz anymore, but there must be something I am getting from that range because when I limit a speakers output to that frequency I can't hear it, but I feel there is something wrong. |
The bottom octave 20 to 40 Hz is critically important. You can not get the sense of a live performance without it. The breath and feeling of the music disappear. Drums and bass become two dimensional. Synthesized bass just dies. I have never heard a speaker system produce this correctly on it's own not that it is impossible but, it seems to be much easier with subwoofers. It takes more than subwoofers. You have to put them in the right places in a well treated room with additional room control and digital bass management. The subs have to have adequate power and be timed correctly. If not done well you have just mud and a detriment to the rest of the system. This is the most difficult part of the spectrum to get right and a zillion ways to get it wrong which is why there are so many opinions on the subject. A large part of the problem is room acoustics. Even with the best equipment the room can severely F up the bass. Rather, I should say that the room will F it up. +- 10 dB in an octave is not uncommon. The end result is what I call one note bass. There is no one solution to this problem. It helps if the room was designed as a listening room to begin with but most people do not have that option. So, you have to use multiple subs with a lot of power, room control and digital bass management with a two way digital crossover. Those of you who are digital phobic need to get over it. You are just shooting yourself in the foot. |
realworldaudio-
The brain makes sense of the fundamentals ONLY when the upper harmonic spectrum is correct.If true this would explain a number of things. It would explain whyTownshend Supertweeters improved the sound of instruments far lower in frequency than the Supertweeters output. It would explain why frequencies we cannot even hear as such nevertheless have an effect that can be heard. And it would account for the fact there are three times as many ear cells devoted to detecting these high frequencies than the ones we can hear. Maybe not explain, the question of why is always hard to crack, but it does for sure agree with all of these observations. |
A speaker has to go flat to 30 hertz with large baffles and large drivers in a full size cabinet to be considered full range and if you can find one made prior to 1965 that is 16 ohms you will definitely hear a full range system unlike anything made today. The baffle should be twice the width of the woofer and three times the height of the woofer to be considered a full size cabinet so for a 15 inch woofer it would be 30 by 45 inches and the cabinet should be 1.5 to 2 times the depth of the driver so for the 15 inch woofer that would be 22.5 to 30 inches deep. When you get a speaker like this with the high quality drivers in it you will know what full range is and the need for a subwoofer will go away completely. |
A couple things about room treatments in general: it may look at first like it’s just a matter of picking out what you might think you might need from a vast forest of treatment products that are out there, pro or DIY. The one big problem with any of that is that it will in fact work to some extent. That is, whatever you pick out will work, but how much and at what frequencies? It’s great to say that we can absorb or diffuse by so much at X frequencies. But how do even know where the problem spots in the room actually are to begin with? Are we reducing the right frequencies at the right room locations? Are we in fact making things better or making things worse? We can’t know what to treat and what to leave alone if we haven’t yet done our homework and have visually mapped out where the problem areas in our room actually are...until we do that, then we’re just guessing...the odds certainly don’t favor guesswork simply because the behavior of the world of acoustics typically does not follow ’common sense’ logic...our best guesses are more likely to turn out to be wrong than right. There’s always experimenting, which is good, but measuring the room first is even better. But this can’t be done in a single sitting, it takes Many different readings. It’s tricky, and in the pro arena, when it’s time for that they call in the other pro’s: the acousticians. In the hifi world, that gets pricey, worth it maybe, but still pricey. But, of all the things you mention above, the drapes idea seem to be maybe your best shot at your biggest bang for the buck here. I mean those very heavy sound-deadening curtains they use in studios, with a thinner outer covering to keep the wife happy. None of the you mention will really do anything to offer much control below 200 Hz, but above, those curtains would be good. But the best part is that you can control how much wall coverage and you can experiment easily by sliding them open or closed...a great way to experiment for yourself. Rugs on the floor if you don’t already have them. AFA the ceiling is concerned, I’m not sure anything would be effective for the bass. Foam would help only so much in the mids and the highs, but the reason the mids and highs sound so compromised to start with is because of the bass. Too much folded bass energy in the small room creates not only a problem with the fundamental bass note, but also on all the harmonics of that note, as you go up in frequency (and down in amplitude). So you can put foam, fiberglass or curtains down to control the harmonics everywhere, but they are just band-aids. The real trick would be to try to gain room size and volume to keep the bass from bombarding the mids and highs into oblivion. Once the mids and highs are contaminated (mixed in with the harmonics), you can’t absorb your way out of the problem without reducing the good sound along with the bad...so, if you must do it that way, then reducing things by a judicious amount, and no more, is the about only hope there is of applying an optimal treatment, a limited compromise...but it does also help keeps costs sane, since any additional treatment after that point would only make things sound worse. |
