I mentioned a serious implementation of the Lii Silver 10 and you talk about your time with a Fast 8 mounted with two screws in a POS box.
Sorry, I cannot take anything you say seriously. The way you post, how you talk, your system, your POS speaker test box, the system sound on your videos, etc......seems all very immature. You never heard the Fast 8......not in that horrible box......you need it burned in 200 hours, in the best box for it possible (right size, super dead and damped, great absorbing material inside, driver correctly mounted using brass screws torqued just right, etc.), binding posts on the driver bypassed, listened to on a more tweak stereo, etc......then you can say you heard the driver......same with any driver. |
the Lii Silver 10
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had the LII Fast 8, the older model.
There was not even 1 thing I liked about that wide band
I quickly dumped it on ebay at 1/2 what i paid.
I am experimenting with various Davidlouis, IMHO the DL's are the best bang wide band.
No I have not heard every AER/Voxativ
I did hear the Voxativ AC1A and they were LESS THAN the cheap LII garbage.
I have serious doubts to the performance of the AER/Voxativ.
|
My friend is using the Lii Silver 10 on a four foot high baffle.....two feet wide....with four foot by one foot wings going straight back on the sides. He has measured 40hz flat in his room.....-5 at 30hz. The Silver 10 has a 28hz resonance. He added an ESS AMT on top using a copper foil cap above 10K......simply incredible sound. 98db efficiency. He soldered his speaker wires directly to the voice coil wires.....(he removed the binding posts on the speaker). This gives way better sound than going through a binding post.
Now he is going to add 2 15 inch woofers to each side.....he will bi-amp using a solid state amp and electronic xover for the woofs......and leave the 10 inch running full range or roll it off by using a smaller value of coupling cap in his tube amp. If the smaller value cap is a better cap then you have even better sound. By limiting the full range to above 100hz you will lower its distortion and increase its dynamic range. But, he has been listening to the 10 by itself for months and months now and is still Gobsmacked! The Lii drivers need at least 200 hours of hard playing to really loosen up. He has another system on the other side of the house and he can blast all day a new driver. |
@mijostyn
I agree. 40 Hz seems like a reasonable number for bass. And subs will always be needed to dig into the 20's. There are speakers that can go into the 20’s, but they are few and far between; and always rather large.
In a perfect world we would all be blessed with 14’x36’x12’ listening room, minimum, and the funds to fill that with our equipment. But until that day arrives I will have to be satisfied with trying to achieve that sound in a smaller room. |
William53b, in thinking about it I would to re-define my answer to reflect what I really believe. The full range that needs to be reproduced to create the "absolute sound" is 18 Hz to 20 kHz. However, no single speaker system should do this. Low bass requires a specific type of enclosure and location to perform well. Very low base also causes trouble with drivers that have to run up higher. Thus IMHO every system requires subwoofers. A main speaker should only be responsible for 40 Hz to 20 kHz at most on its own and 80 Hz to 20 kHz with subwoofers. So I would consider a loudspeaker that can do 40 Hz to 20 kHz to be full range. I have never heard a single driver do this successfully and my intuition says that you would be more likely to achieve satisfactory performance out of a well designed 2 way loudspeaker than any of these so called "full range" drivers |
Its just that none, zero , of the commercial speakers interest me.
So that is why I had to design my own speaker, w/o any advice, suggestions, ideas from my tech geek nor anyone here on audiogon.
I had to make my own design, nilly willy, for the good or the bad.
Tried this, that, then swaped out that, for this, and so on.
Til finally i have pretty much my Final Speaker til death.
You could not even give me a speaker to replace my own design.
You may not like it, but thing is , its my music, my ears, and this speaker is as close to my perfect ideal of how a speaker should voice.
Again, you might say ***THAT!!**
And I will respond, Its as close to my hopes of speaker nirvana, more than I could ever expect.
Each person has to come to his own ideas/experiences of how he wishes his ideal speaker to voice.
I have plans to add a DL8, the white cone wide band
Will bea shootout twix the
DL 6.5 Neodymium
vs
DL 8/Ferrite magnet weighing in at a blsitering 8 lbs!!!!!!!!!, Woden cone
One heck of a shootout.
One or the other will be champ of wide bands.
My guess is I'll like things about both and so keep both. Swap out, depends on the music selection.
Sort of adding spice and variety.
So like yeah, my speaker is all original, my ideas, no one elses.
|
Keep in mind the 6550's have more than ~~~2k~~ hours,,
all the sheen is rubed off. Still in all, this lil wide band delivers stunning highs. Exteremely accurate, with no coloration , zero fatigue =
SUCCESS!!!!
Did not come cheap.
I am the only YTer showing off the DavidLouis.
|
Dis the above DL video, This is DL part 2. I am telling you, this lil wide band delivers rich detailed nass/mids/highs. I would not trade this DL6.5 for any speaker on the market. Not even the Wilson top line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23SlH6meAQA |
Read what it says over a few times and it will make sense.. We want it, in your head, not over your head. :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes I looked over the Tannoy's. Interesting,, Seas also has a ~~Co-axil__. Interesting if you read the descript, Seas says they designed this ~~concentric~~ with the highest regards for super high fidelity. Again, interesting. But note, Seas says bass is 150hz, more as a midrange-tweet. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-excel-c18en002/a-e0060-6.5-coaxial-each/I am sure the Seas along with a Seas W22 Graphene would be a nice speaker, caveat $$$$$$$$./ So I went with the DavidLouis wide band @ 91 ~~TRUE!!!~ sens and bass does in fact hit the 60hz, if not 50hz before roll off. Mids/vocals are accurate and nothing harsh nor showing signs of stress at moderate db levels on gain. Highs are there, rolling off, maybe like 13k/14kish. = highs are sweet and satisfactory. So for $450 its right in my budget, vs the layout for the Tannoys which I may have some issues with either in the bass/, mids or highs. I have no issues whatsoever in the DL 6.5 This lil DL 6.5 is the speaker to beat out ina shootout IMHO/2 cents worth. Here's another demo of the DL6.5 in action,. Its everything i hoped for in a speaker. My experiements , though costly, have paid off. The DavidLouis has no other YT uploads except on my channel. I will be making a long series of vids over the next weeks showing just what this speaker is capable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h8TRoILZEg&t=2s |
Concentric is two drivers in one chassis with the center being the High Frequency (HF) driver independent of the outer Lower Frequency (LF) driver. Tannoy speaker drivers.
Read what it says over a few times and it will make sense.. We want it, in your head, not over your head. :-)
Regards |
Now think concentric driver with a whizzer for better off axis and phase plug for back wave distortion reduction. My question is can you still keep the acoustic center of the two drivers and use the correct phase plug to stop the back wave (BASS), from the rear/side walls first reflection. Hypothetically the HF driver would have to be set inside the phase plug or Open Baffle the HF driver backwards.. (I’ve seen that).. and it works if the rest of the driver system is in a box, bipoled the opposite direction. (I haven’t seen that)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wayyy over my head, btw what is ~~~HF~~~ I really have no idea what you are descriving. Anyway. My DavidLouis 6.5 whizzer wide band just arrived , Up N running. Very nice gain over the DL4 incher wide band. Added some bass, , mids are claener, highs not rolled off. = A WINNER. $450 includes ship The Crescendo/Seas wasa HUGEEEE disappointment, Seas claims 92db, My tech hook it to his sens gadget,, maybe 85db, when i hooked it up to a Mundorf 2.2 Supreme cap,,I COULD HARDLY HEAR IT ,, I;d say its more like 83db,,which means I have to ship it off to madisound for testing,, No way seas would lie.. We will find out if something is wrong,,Bought it as new off ebay auction, Anyway,,I'd say this DL 6.5 is the very best wide band in production versus\ Fesatrex, AER Voxativ. Yep, thats my 2 cent opinion, The DL at $450, needing NO HORN cabinet, just a 12 inch x 12 inch x 12 inch sanded ply from Home Depot, cut in 4 1 inch port hole at each corner = and you have a $20 cabinet. I just feel the big 3 labs will not hold up against the DL 6.5. No have not heard the big 3 , all models,, only the Vox AC1A, The DL completely totally annihilates and destroys the Voxatiiv AC1A 's @ $2k. Davidlouis Gold Standard in Wide band. I'd take this DL6.5 over any Wislon and Vandersteen Enjoy Some tech geek in china, knows how to build a wide band. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h8TRoILZEg |
Concentric vs
Single driver
Whizzer AND
Phase Plugs
Whizzer cones have an effect, a lot lower than 7Khz. If you compare the response of the speaker with and without the whizzer cone, not just the frequencies where the whizzer is the sole source of sound.
An 8" driver with 160mm cone and 80mm horn shaped whizzer with and without whizzer, was tested. They found the whizzer cone starts to have a large effect on the off axis response as low as 2.5Khz.
Specifically the presence of the whizzer cone reduced the on axis response from 2.5Khz to about 6Khz by nearly 3dB, but increased the (30 degree) off axis response by several dB. The dispersion between 2.5Khz and 6Khz was greatly improved at the expense of -1db loss of on axis response.
On axis response without the whizzer actually had a +3dB shelf from 2.5Khz to 6Khz, which suggests the main cone of the driver was designed with an increased output in this range (a slight convexed taper) so the response was balanced once the whizzer was placed.
Above 7Khz the response of the single main cone by itself disappears. At 7Khz the output is almost entirely the whizzer cone.
So technically the whizzer is only acting as a second separate cone above 7Khz, but between 2.5Khz and 7Khz it is still acting as a source of sound as well as a directivity modifier for the main cone.
The improvement in dispersion is so great that at 4Khz without whizzer cone the 30 degree off axis response was -9dB with on axis response (severe beaming). With the whizzer cone in place the 30 degree off axis response at 4Khz was only -1.8dB from the on axis response...
Now think concentric driver with a whizzer for better off axis and phase plug for back wave distortion reduction.
My question is can you still keep the acoustic center of the two drivers and use the correct phase plug to stop the back wave (BASS), from the rear/side walls first reflection.
Hypothetically the HF driver would have to be set inside the phase plug or Open Baffle the HF driver backwards.. (I’ve seen that).. and it works if the rest of the driver system is in a box, bipoled the opposite direction.
(I haven’t seen that)
What I’ve seen and herd though was BOTH sides of the driver were in an open baffle. So it was dipole for the bass and bipole for the HF driver (it had it’s own chamber) and it was facing the front wall..
A nightmare to get the timing right.
The acoustic center only stay aligned, IF the driver and structure are placed in a chamber, I don’t think you could get it to work correctly in a listening room. Maybe.. within 1/2" to get it right..
3 years I worked with the old GRs at a buddies.. 90s. (Super Wedge or something).
He gave up.. I didn’t have much of a choice.
Regards |
william53b OP166 posts08-05-2021 11:35amVery nice.
I like Seas drivers as well, but also Eton Symphony’s, and Scan Speak Revelators.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Troel Gravesen uses both Eton and scan's, both excellent speakers,, Here is my brief biase and heavy prejudiced review of the build on the DL 6.5 which just arrived, Tech is out of shop, so a listen will have to wait til tomorrow . I did say BIASEd and PRE-judiced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAFNVCXk93Y |
Very nice.
I like Seas drivers as well, but also Eton Symphony’s, and Scan Speak Revelators. |
Many claim to be, but how many can handle a full orchestra’s range?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is my best pic of any speaker other than DIY of course that can handle/voice full symphony orchestra in all its colors dynamics, with no coloration. Unlike Wilson's which in fact do have fatigue This Seas has zero fatigue. I know I own Seas. Zero fatigue. Wilson's although FR , have coloration of muddy grey's, in upper bass. https://www.ebay.com/itm/224515675545?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D2016... |
A new pair of what I consider to be "Full Range" speakers is now in my system.
Zu Omen Def MKII's. Down to 38 hz in my room, and 30 hz 3db down. This puts me on the cusp of not needing a sub, and whether I will bother with one remains to be seen, only time will tell. Well that and adding my Loki into the chain. If that fills out the bottom when needed, then I'll buy a Lokius from Schiit.
But first I'll have to try a high current amp with them, before messing with their sonic signature. My Benchmark is amazingly transparent and more than enough power for these, and a good bass drum kick is a punch in the chest, and not just in the eardrum.
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@mozartfan,
Frankly I think a line array of the David Lewis' is all you would need. When you have one speaker that is that accurate and lushly pleasant sounding it is only a matter of having enough of them to fill in the bottom end.
Surface area wise 10 of them would equal a 12” woofer, but I think that may be overkill as they have adequate bass at the volume you are playing them.
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william53b OP159 posts07-30-2021 8:13am@mortzartfan How many W18’s? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dual, thats 2 per channel. sens is 86 db, very low, which is why Seas uses 2 per channel, They use the E001 and not the EX001. I would rather have the EX001 fora few $’s more, bigger magnet, = more kick in low bass. I guess they wanted a balance (E001 more recessed bass vs the EX001), competeing with the single Millennium tweet. Best bang speaker would be Dual W22 EX’s per channel, + a Crescendo = a Super Thor. The Crescendo is far superior to the old Seas Flagship the Millennium. For same price. I have a single Crescendo now, , so that project is on hold til I find cash for a second unit.. which i will be running with a 8.2 cap, = 3200hz. The W18’s roll off at say 1600hz So the 1600hz-3200hz will be carried by the davidLouis 4 inch wide band,,which rolls off at say 80ish hz and maybe like 10k-12khzish,,Not sure. But definetly has some highs. bass not bad for a lil 4 incher. Mids, all there, with vocals very accurate. hardly any coloration/distoryion,,so fatigue is never a issue (no resonances due to some treatment on the paper cone material, = does not have a paper composite sound, not at all. Its 91db. How it compares to its bigger brother the 6.5 incher,,will soon know late this week. when it arrives via Honk Kong seller. I am expecting alottt more bang out the 6.5,,as a 4 inch cone is very tiny = can’t really open up on bass. So here is the 4 in action, no tweeter and forgot to unplug one channel’s W18’s. Still you get a good idea of the voicing of this lil guy Wilson offers a $960k signature speaker,w hich clarly beats out this oil 4 inch wide band. However if I hear even the slightest coloration in any of Wislon’s mid range fq’s. Then I’ll have to say, this lil 4 inch beats Wislon in the fatigue category. This is the problem with any speaker trying to acheive all fq range, price no object. My tech friend has the Rat Shak Nova 7B’s with the paper composite cones, He loves his Noa 7B’ s stacked...I HATE anything paper, if its not treated with some coating. Even witha coati9ng it brings back old feelings from speakers of the 1970’s. A sound I wish to be as far away from as possible. Which is why I luckily went with magnesium, = Has no lower bass/lower mid resonances that I hear in paper. I believe Scanspeak in the Wilson’s are paper composite. And for this reason, I could never live with any of the Wilson line. I get the feeling *Been there done that** I do not need crystaline highs,,, deep rock solid bass. In the Wilson’s you get both. Thats not what I am after. My goal has been to try eliminate as much coloration as possible hopefully resulting in as close to zero fatigue as possible. I am getting closer and closer to this goal, with the DavidLouis 6.5 + Crescendo. The Crescendo Project is a ways off. Short on cash right now.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUYOwY8yNPc |
@mortzartfan
How many W18's?
Active or passive XO? |
After trying various types of wide band as a low bass- lower highs driver,,,I've just ordered something I think will put my speaker in the ball park of true full range
W18's as bass modeuales, 40hz-1200hz
DavidLouis 6.5 , 80hz-,,who knows, maybe like 12khz rolloff
and a Seas Crescendo running,,like 4khz-say,,who knows maybe 15k+ hz.
There is alot of over lap between the 3 drivers,.
For me thats ok, as long as all3 have quality musical reproduction. (= no coloration/no muddy mids/no fatigue)
Think of it as a sort of **LIne Array**
And this set up is friendly to whatever amplifer of your choice. All are 8 ohms, easy load.
I'm running a DL 4 incher, and have pretty good results. Female voice accurate.
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My DIY fully horn loaded speakers uses Bill Fitzmaurie designed HT Tuba folded corner horn subs, quarter wave horns turned to 25 Hz. Output measured at the listening position with my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter of the DSPed system (DEQX) shows the output at 25Hz to be identical to the output of the 1kHz reference tone. Roll off below 25Hz should theoretically be at 18dB/octave but is in fact a bit steeper than that.
The subs are 2ft.X3ft.X3ft. or 18 cubic feet.
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Tricky and interesting question. I'd say 25Hz at -0dB at least. And why is because when I added subs and EQ'd it carefully it plays near flat 200 down to 25Hz now (no lumps). I hear things in recordings I never heard before, and that is always great.
Because of DBA I will always say more subwoofers are better (all turned down low). But I believe that in terms of frequency reproduction and deep low bass, there are flagship products, Wilson, Magico, et al, that I would consider full range (knowing add'l subs would aid low end quality).
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even 15" pro audio woofers wont even go lower then 30hz, most people are better off without the 20-30hz due to room acoustics.
Real bass is between 40 to 160hz and one need at least a 12" woofer to actually know what real bass is |
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Then 18Hz it is and I do not mean 3 dB down. That is always my target. |
I have no control over what people do with their listening rooms, so that point is moot to me. The sordid details of their listening room are theirs alone to solve.
This is strictly asking people that reply to the post to make a statement as to what hz on the lower end makes a speaker, not a particular driver, but the finished product, full range to them.
My number used to be 40 hz, now it is 32 hz. Whether I add a sub or not is up to me, and not relevant to the question. |
Check out the upright bass in the article I posted. I never knew they made one like that! It is tuned to A0 which is 27.5 Hz. |
William53, I think the definition is rather arbitrary. What is important is how speakers perform in reality in a normal room at normal distances. You can not rely on specs particularly when it comes down to low frequencies. There are painfully few "full range" speakers that make it down to 20 Hz gracefully particularly if you try to run room control. Read the article I just posted in this section. Low bass is a problem that is best handled in isolation. IMHO as moon-audio defines it there is no such thing as a full range loudspeaker. Good performance certainly under 80 Hz requires entirely different parameters than the rest of the audio range particularly when it comes to positioning the drivers. You might want to use totally different types of amplification such as a tube amp above and a SS bruiser below. Not that it isn't impossible but I have never heard a "full range" speaker produce adequate bass. |
Yes. Suppose I framed it differently. Have you ever had bookshelf or stand mount speakers that you consider full range? If you spend enough, of course you can buy full range speakers. But some decent ones can be had for under $3k The term full range speakers is not the same as full range drivers, which is a separate category. I failed to make that clear in the beginning. One definition from the web, of which there are many: "The term “Full-Range” connotes the speaker that covers the entire range of the human voice. Most full-range speakers have a low frequency of around 60-70 Hz. Larger units with 15” drivers will reach low frequencies, while those of 10” LF drivers or less will roll off closer to 100 Hz." Here is one example of a dictionary of audiophile terms, I’ll look for others. https://www.moon-audio.com/audiophile-terms-guide#F |
Geez, a lot of academic mumbo jumbo in this thread. I have spent countless hours listening to full sized speakers with a -3db point between 22 Hz and 40 Hz. Without question, the lower extension speakers have dramatically out performed over enough of my listening list that it is important. Of course, sometimes 40 Hz is all you need, but there is plenty of music that plums the lower depth. I have had Revel Salons, Thiel CS5s and CS7.2s in my listening room at the same time to compare along with less bass proficient speakers to compare. It makes a significant difference. |
@myjostyn
I am not looking for a solution, I can build bass horns that go down to 20 hz, and will shake my family room off of my house. How to get there is not the question, it is:
What do you consider full range as a definition of a speaker catagory?
Because it is term that is used without any definition of what the term means. As far as I can see it's just a marketing term.
I'd just like to find out what people consider that to be, so we can establish some sort of credible definition. |
Anything with a whizzer cone is not full range
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No indeed, it is not,
There is some roll off in the lows/highs.
But I can tell you , this lil 4 incher packs a nice lil kick in the upper bass. and highs are not so rolled off, at least for classical music,
For jazz, yeah you want more of the shimmer and glitz on top end.
I am using it more of a upper bass - upper mids driver.
The W18's now at 10uf go up to 1600hzish and so there is a huge overlap with the W18 and 4 inch whizzer, The 4 goesc down to say 100hzish. As i say has some punch for a lil guy
Highs aint too shabby either.
Vocals accurate,
Stress/distortion glares in full orch explosions/huge chorus.
But livable.
I think folks need to be aware the whizzer full range is onlya LIMITED wide band, Not a FULL range.
Again, for my tastes in orch, its more full rich ofa image vs a 1 inch dome tweeter.
I'd a whizzer cone can be considered full range as in the sense 90% of the music is voiced by the driver.
A better name for these drivers is a 90./
Other **full range** were not even 90%
More like 70% of the fq's voiced.
making these lower Q drivers , near worthless for my usage/intentions.
Lii fast 8 old model 70%
DavidLouis Diatone 6.5 70%.
The Vox was even lower.
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william53, I think that is what I have been trying to tell you. Unless you want to go for an ESL with subwoofers, the best you can do with dynamic drivers is a two way system with subwoofers. It is easier to control and engineer a passive two way crossover than it is to control and engineer the mechanical crossover you have in these so called full range loudspeakers. Anything with a whizzer cone is not full range, it is two way. The crossover is mechanical as the whizzer cone becomes decoupled from the woofer/midrange cone. The ESL is the only truly full range driver but it still IMHO requires subwoofers. An ESL will do 28Hz to 20 kHz but removing 100Hz down cleans up the sound so much that you are better off crossing to subs. I cross at 120 Hz. Above that it is all one way. Not that everything is perfectly rosy, it is not. There are two transformers, several resistors and caps involved between the amps and the ESL panel. |
WEll seems Wilson is defining what Full Range is, the cabinets are fulll of drivers,
There is not 1 fq missing. To me thats FULL packed range.
Sorry not interested.
Seas Millenniumk twee rolls off the top end, but the low mids are super fidelity and voice as accurate as any Magneplanar, Sound labs, Quad 57 human voicing.
I think the new flagship Cresendo has extended the top end.
IMHO full range is 60hz-12k hz.
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I am amazed at how far off track this post has wandered. What, on the low end, defines a "full range" speaker to you; 20-60 hz? Lower or higher than that, that’s ok to say too.
Where do you define a full range speaker for yourself? Of course top end is ok too, if you want, but that is much easier to achieve. How you get there is up to you, and not really important to the original post, because thats where the quibbling starts.
Mine is 28 hz, 0db down at my preferred listening level. So, very few speakers can lay claim to being full range if that is true to me, and right now I need a sub. So, i consider all of my speakers wide range, but not full range. |
mijostyn4,713 posts07-21-2021 7:22amdaledeee1, absolutely incorrect. Specs as published mean very little. They are taken at one meter in an anechoic chamber. At 3 meters in a real room the story is entirely different. Most speakers start dying at 80-100 Hz with a peak or two below depending on room nodes which results in one note bass.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WOW Very nice info here. You justn saved me from consideringa Seas 2 way with a dedicated midrange and adding a W26 or W22,. based on your info, makes no sense for me to attempt to gain a deep bass than what i already have. Dual 6.5's might in the end beat out a single W22 or even a single W26 Both the W22/W26 on paper go lower, but as you say ina test room, 1 meter. In real time, its a game changer. No, I'm thinking now dual W18's = best bang for the bass buck. Troels pretty much confirms this on his notes about Dual W18's bass punch. |
both of which were definitely full range. He alsways said that to build a better woofer build a better tweeter meaning, of course, that bass quality depended as much on the bass notes harmonics as on it's fundamentals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your friend was on to something,, ~~Fundamentals~~
YOu see Scanspeak's beat Seas Magnesium in the deepest bass fq.s
More punch, kick,
But what Seas gave up in the deep bass of the drum percussion, they gain in the upper bass/low midarnge.
Paper composite has its own characteristic, and Magnesium has its own particular voicing.
__bass notes harmonics**. The bass guitar on the magnesium is unreal, super sweet.
THe Scan paper composite just won't work for my peculiar taste.
You see Wislon sticks a bunch of drivers in a cabinet offering you true /complete full range, deep powerful bass, sweet glorious highs,,
But at the sacrifice of upper bass.low mids, quality control....
Vandersteen is guilty of this mid issues as well, but certainly at a lower price tag.
Wilson has a speaker now, approaching close to the $1M tag, (M as in Million!!) |
daledeee1, absolutely incorrect. Specs as published mean very little. They are taken at one meter in an anechoic chamber. At 3 meters in a real room the story is entirely different. Most speakers start dying at 80-100 Hz with a peak or two below depending on room nodes which results in one note bass. |
As per Millercarbon's comments on bass and harmonics I recall my late friend George Bischoff's comments. George was heavily involved in Pipedreams and Scaena speakers, both of which were definitely full range. He alsways said that to build a better woofer build a better tweeter meaning, of course, that bass quality depended as much on the bass notes harmonics as on it's fundamentals. |
|
Musicians performing in a room, captured with a "stereo" microphone (Blumlein)...
Playback: If you filter 35Hz and lower...
...you take away much of the "room" (the acoustical space) that the recording did capture and is capable of presenting back to the listener over two full-range loudspeakers. |
I've never made my self clean about the OP's Q;s Full range? Does it really exist? I tried to explain , but have missed being clear on the matter. After speaking with Josh /Madisound on the phone yesterday, we were discussing compromises in designs. He mentioned something that i now see as so true Josh brought up 1 of Murphy's Laws, You can get 2 or the 3, not never 3 of 3 qualities ina speaker. Now i see exactly what he is saying about Seas, vs Scan speaks midwoofers. Its never been my intention to finda speaker that has deep 20-40hz bass. Neither sweetest highs. No. My main searching has been for cleanest mids. Which is why i chose the magnesium. The Seas magnesiusm's can not perfom as a Scan speaker mid. Its a different cone material If you want rock solid drun solos, get Scan speaks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6B6WjAzuc8&t=4sBut somewhere you are going to have to make a sacrifice. I;'m willing to give up that rock solid punch, fora sweeter upper bass.low mids which I find the magnesium offers better. Again, if you want nice sizzle and sparkle on the highs, get the Scanspeak tweeters. I find the Seas , though not as sparkley on top end, has a finer body voicing vocals with STUNNING accuracy and perfection. Again a trade off, the Seas lacks that sparkle and sizzle, but a superior bottom fq reproduction. . Hope this clears up what I believe about the idea of full range. |
daledeee1201 posts07-20-2021 8:38amThis thread made me look at specs. Many speakers really do well down to 40Hz. I wonder if people overlook the -6dB tucked away in the specs of many speakers and subs. Big boxes make bass easily. But wait, we want a speaker that is full range. And we want one that has a nice look, a nice profile. Oops there goes the efficiency. Here come the monster amps. Once again I have to hear these relatively small boxes make 20 Hz. Oh I'm sorry. My two 10" subs will do 30 Hz at 105 dB. When I received my subs i asked what it took to get down to 20, he answered a box half the size of a refrigerator.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hahaha YOu NAILED it on the head, one hit of the hammer, putting the final nail on the 20hz-30hz coffin. I told everyone it was all a dream, some such elusive fools gold trippin... 20-30hz, do these fq's exist in some reality? Yes, Are these rareites contained in our music? NO HT movie/space age music, yes, But thats not music. Glad you post the truth. Half the size of a frig. No wonder Vox and AER has these massive ridiculous horn set ups. Here is the Cresendo in action female voice. WOW factor high. Blows the Millennium clean out its cowboy boots in a shootout. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP_CUbelIuY |
This thread made me look at specs. Many speakers really do well down to 40Hz. I wonder if people overlook the -6dB tucked away in the specs of many speakers and subs. Big boxes make bass easily. But wait, we want a speaker that is full range. And we want one that has a nice look, a nice profile. Oops there goes the efficiency. Here come the monster amps. Once again I have to hear these relatively small boxes make 20 Hz. Oh I'm sorry. My two 10" subs will do 30 Hz at 105 dB. When I received my subs i asked what it took to get down to 20, he answered a box half the size of a refrigerator.
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Full range,, hummm lets see, thinking it all over last night, early this morning. My best bang bet ~~Seas W26, Says Aluminum, but also has the fantastic Magnesium mixed in. we all HATE the almminum from the 80/s woofers. YUCKKK, but this is a compostie = acceptable. 20hz-1000 hz, simple xover, maybe just run it xoverless. Like a full range, not sure get with your Madisound tech geek. This wil be the lower chamber/sepaate from the above mid/high box. Easy cabinet, sealed, porter, front rear however you wish. There’s your bass. Now onto midrange. Seas W15CH002, yeah I know paper, but here we are not dealing with the issues present in woofer paper resonances. I chose this treated paper over the magnessum Hex neo, to bring in warmth /body in this 1000-3k critical range. Not sure, either one would work. I’d try the Nextel W15 1st, doesn’t work, try the magnesium W15 Hex Neo magnet On to Highs 3k-15k. Cresendo w/o a doubt. There is my BestBangBet for a true high fidelity full range. EDIT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, have to go back on the Nextel W15CH002. I much prefer the less warm W15CH002 magnesium, I know roels loves the Nextel, But I have to stay within the Magnesium family So Mids 800-3k will be carried by the W15CH002 Magnesium. Sens is low at 85db , that might be a issue. This is not the Neo Hex W15, this is the brother with the Ferrite magnet system. Still you get an idea how it voices,, GORGEOUSLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PEU80loDCQ |
Omega speakers does an excellent job with their full-range drivers. They have several speakers they call "high output" in which two identical drivers are run but the second is cut off at 200hz so it only adds bass and low end and dynamics (improves efficiency too). Their 4.5-inch driver has great top end extension, is very fast and has a very wide image. Their Alnico driver has better bass, dynamics and excellent tone. Their 8-inch driver excels in dynamics. |
flat from 16 cycles [lower limit of 32' pipes on an organ] to beyond audibility [over 20k cycles]. bass that doesn't go down that far and that loudly is not going to properly reproduce the full scale of a large pipe organ or even a large symphony orchestra with full-sized bass drum/thunderdrum and concert contrabasses. you've got to be feeling those pants-flapping 32' contra bombarde pipes. |
Scratch the T35C002 back to Cresendo. Yeah I know low is 2K, W22 Graph high 2k. Gonna have to xoss at 2khz. The issue I have with the T35C002, is its too sensitive and has too much gain in the upper register. The Cresendo will give more **body* to the lower register and will not extend as high. Its a beefier tweeter. I found the T35C002 has too much sizzle on top end. Oh yes, I love this Cresendo graph at 2khz, ~~~90db sens~~~~ wowow, thats super. This is one heck of a tweeter, Cresendo Magnet weight 53 grams vs T35C002 @ 35 grams. Cresendo Bestbang tweet, https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-excel-t29cf-002-e0040-crescendo-f... |
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Gut feeling says the Nextel mids from Seas, give more tighter punch in low bass, vs the softer low bass of the Magnesium. But I can feel that paper resonance in the Nextel coated paper woofer, vs the the cleaner, neutral upper bass/low mids in the magnesium. Trade off once again. I'll take the clearer/more sweet, less warm Magnesium over the Nextel.s I think Seas made the Nextel to compete with Scanspeaks superior low bass. Scans are paper composite mids. I just can not deal with that overly warm voicing of the upperbass/low mids, which even a Nextel coating can not mask over. As far as the Cresendo, its 92db. I'd rather think the T35002 with 95 db, and $100 less per tweet, is a better bang. Hard to say w/o comparing side by side. T35005 goes down to ~~~~~1500hz~~~~ wow, don't see that low very often The Cresendo's recommended xover is 2khz. hummm, see my hunch is right, T35002 95db, Neodymium magnet, x's 1500hz. WinWinWin So I'd go Graphene W22/T35002 vs this Bifrost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgaUQO4lvII&t=10shttps://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-excel-t35c-002-35mm-mid-tweeter/Cost about the same, But better bang IMHO |
