I wouldn’t, but it is your house (I hope?) After re-reading this thread if that is easiest then yes do it. I think alot of us who use power conditioners have it within 1-2m of the components, and then if you need a longer power cord to go from the wall to the conditioner you buy just one longer power cord.
@mclinnguy , house is ours, bought and now paid for. And moving the outlets up about a foot or a foot & 1/2 would allow all of the gear that I am using to go straight into the wall. Not only that, when I do that, I might as well do a better job of routing the three runs of Romex to insure more space between them. Which will put me back up in the attic again, which is my least favorite place in this house, but it’s not like I have a lot else going on in my life.
Sounds like you are fixed into your components needing to be in a rack? A tall one? Do they need to be? I don’t have a rack- I have platforms- so I don’t have that issue.
Well, not really, but that’s another story. The gear is off to the side, not in a rack and not between the speakers.
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Which will put me back up in the attic again, which is my lest favorite plaace in this house,
I hear ya; wear a dust mask.
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I hear ya; wear a dust mask.
Ha! It’s interesting that you should mention it, @mclinnguy . When I ran Romex up there for the first set of dedicated circuits back in ’98 or so, I wouldn’t go up there without wearing a respirator. Since then there have been several more circuit/wire expeditions up there, and the last time was two Novembers ago. For that one I was redoing some stuff for the new circuits in my new listening room. "Redoing" is an understatement--"doing over" is more apt, but anyway I was up there day after day after day. I’d wake up, go to MacD’s and get a frappe, and then climb up into the attic and work until my cramps got too bad &/or I could feel my blood sugar getting too low.
Anyway, when I started that last expedition I was wearing a mask, but my glasses were fogging up and it was just a hindrance and I said screw it. Then about a week before Thanksgiving (I had finished my attic work) I had gone to the VA hospital to take a cardiac stress test and this was about the time Covid masking was unofficially starting to relax a bit. I woke up Thanksgiving morning feeling a bit crappy, and by the next day I was sick as a dog, and I stayed sick for better than a week.
I didn’t get tested, but I figured I must have picked up a dose of the Covid at the VA hospital, but I am also wondering if maybe that sickness was the result of all the nasty dust I was inhaling up there.
Anyway, this next expedition will be a lot quicker than the last one. Unless, that is, I decide to swap out the 12-2 for 10-2.
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Yes sorry for the confusion. The paper was a cut and paste from The Absolute sound. The paper was submitted by Vince Galbo of MSB fame.
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Yeah who knows; hospitals are great places to pick up strange stuff. And It's amazing all the hazardous materials our older buildings were made from, like lead and asbestos, not to mention what else may be up in attics: Mold, other spores, feces from rodents and birds, and some have disturbed some old bat dung and got some really nasty complications. Better safe than sorry as they say! I need to get a better respirator on that note, those dust masks only block about 95%.
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That paper from The Absolute Sound is unusual.
It mixes thoughtful, solid advice and downright dangerous garbage no one should attempt unless they aspire to become poster boys for Darwin’s teachings.
Usually you get one or the other but not both, and, unexpectedly, the author is in a leadership position at a legit, well-regarded company.
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@chuck I see the article was produced back in 2016 and updated since. Quite the sound room they have at MSB- I am sure every one of those suggestions were employed in the construction of this room. I've often wondered how does one know when to stop with the absorption and diffusion treatments?
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I am not going to put the silver paste on anything on my circuits, but the author writes that:
No need to apply it to the busbar connection especially since these are always electrically live and fatally dangerous!!
?
Is he referring to the neutral/ground bar?
6 gauge or 8-gauge may require a jump down to 10 gauge in a junction box somewhere near the wall outlets for the wire to fit into most wall outlets.
Is this jump down legitimate to do? And if it is, I am not sure where to put the junction box? I guess you would have to cut the dry wall out and mount the box to a stud close to the outlet, kind of like in new construction and then patch some new dry wall in? I guess I might replace the 12-2 I used in one room with 10-2, but even if it is legitimate, I am not going to go any larger than 10 gauge and "jump" it down inside junction boxes.
I am only asking those last two questions because I truly don’t know a lot about this subject. But I guess it doesn’t matter, because as I said, I am not using the silver paste or doing any jumping down regardless of what the answer is.
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I've often wondered how does one know when to stop with the absorption and diffusion treatments?
I guess when you run out of money or obtain the Holy Grail--whichever comes first?
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Is he referring to the neutral/ground bar?
All the busbars- neutral, hot and ground. The breakers will snap into the busbar, you want paste between the two, so you just need to paste the breaker contacts.
Likewise if one wants paste in their receptacle you don’t need to squeeze paste under the screws into the clamps, just paste the wire and there will be paste between wire and clamp. If you are going to this extent take some emery cloth and clean the oxidation off the copper wire ends first.
I know they pasted the aluminum cable that enters the new 200 amp panel I had installed a few years ago, but that would be antioxidant paste one needs to do when connecting aluminum to copper. Here BC Hydro does not use copper cable from the street/pole to new houses anymore, they use aluminum.
I am not sure where to put the junction box? I guess you would have to cut the dry wall out and mount the box to a stud close to the outlet, kind of like in new construction and then patch some new dry wall in?
Yeah, but as long as you have accessible cover on it, and not buried behind drywall. Think of it like a sub-panel mounted inside the stud cavity. Yeah, could be fugly. I think 10 gauge is more than sufficient.
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@audphile1
I'm not trying to sell anyone on whether or not they should use a power conditioner. Ultimately, every individual audiophile has to find their own way. It's all good in the neighborhood. Happy listening.
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My experience
Amps sound best into the wall
Digital components (DACs and Streamers) benefit from plugging into a Power Conditioner and also from upgraded power cords. So far not the case with my Amp.
Passive Power conditioners clean up the sound without negatively affecting the imaging, soundstage and high end frequencies as active conditioners do in my experience.
And to the OPs original question, yes the power cord for the conditioner affects the sound.
I tried a PS Audio Regenerator and a Audioquest Active Conditioner but found the best performance for my system with a Shunyata Gemini 8 passive. Also I preferred the Shunyata Gamma power cable to the more expensive Theta cable.
Even though my digital components ( Aurender and MSB)) have provided excellent power regulation they benefited from the Shunyata Conditioner.
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@grislybutter ,
Points for them being honest about what's inside.
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I realize that we all have our opinions and preferences. So, I am just adding my present arrangement to the discussion.
After many years of trial and error and upgrading 50+ years:
- I ran 3 10 gauge runs to my breaker box. At the end of these runs, I have 2 each Furutech NCF outlets.
- One dedicated line is reserved for my Video, one for my subs (4) and one for my Main system.
- On the Main system I have a AQ Niagara 7000 plugged into the wall with a AQ Dragon power cord.
- Into the AQ 7000 I have my 2 (Large) 1500 wpc mono blocks plugged into the Hi-Current outlets connected via Dragon power cords.
I have tried the amps directly into the wall and I prefer them plugged into the HI-Current outs on the AudioQuest Niagara 7000.
ozzy
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No need to apply it to the busbar connection especially since these are always electrically live and fatally dangerous!!
All the busbars- neutral, hot and ground. The breakers will snap into the busbar, you want paste between the two, so you just need to paste the breaker contacts.
Okay, I see. I don't know why my mind defaulted to the neutral/ground bar. But why does the author say not to do it because the bus is hot? I mean it would be done with the main breaker turned to 'off'' and at least that part of the panel would be cold with the main switch turned to 'off' and didn't the author refer to other connections to paste that are live when the breaker is not tripped?
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It occurs to the casual observer that if your power conditioner is doing it’s job, and the power cable is equal in size to the circuit cable, no change is necessary. Likewise, there is no advantage in swapping component cables either, as their purported capabilities have been rendered moot by the power conditioner.
Twisting the Romex in an attempt to improve common mode rejection is not a bad idea, but implementing it in most construction (e.g. through studs or along top plates) would be an electricians nightmare. My homes have neither crawlspace nor attics.
Power starving the amp is an amusing concept, unfortunately not supported by Ohm’s Law or actual amplifier requirements. A hypothetical: a 200 W/ch amp operating in Class AB at 60% efficiency draws a peak of ~700W (200+200 /.6 =666.7). Instantaneous peaks of 1 KW are possible if the amp has that much headroom. And those peaks are typically handled by the amps power supply capacitors - that’s their job. Either way, well within the capabilities of a single 15A (1800W) or 20 A (2400W) circuit
Assuming the speakers can handle 200 W (23dBW) and 300W peaks, and have an efficiency of 90dB, that gives a peak output of 114.5 dB (90 + 23 +1.5) Coincidentally, that’s about what most 2X8" or (1X8" and 1X10" such as a Wilson Alexia V) floorstanding speakers are rated for and capable of. Most stand mounts, KEF LS-50s, et al, that number is around 10dB lower. So even when pushed to their limits, the circuit demands are well within the capabilities of a single 20A circuit. The idea that a DAC or preamp or streamer have great dynamic power requirements simply shows a lack of understanding of their basic operations.
Now, using that same basic model I could come up with a scenario using Kilowatt monoblocks driving some megaspeaker that requires 2 dedicated 20A circuits, and if that applies to you, great. Ohm’s Law also still applies.
Finally, the recommendation of multiple earth grounds is not only wrong, it is dangerous and a violation of the NEC. Even slight differences in resistance between different grounds would create a voltage differential, line noise and potentially dangerous ground loops in and around the structure. Just don’t.
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A hypothetical: a 200 W/ch amp operating in Class AB at 60% efficiency draws a peak of ~700W (200+200 /.6 =666.7). Instantaneous peaks of 1 KW are possible if the amp has that much headroom. And those peaks are typically handled by the amps power supply capacitors - that’s their job. Either way, well within the capabilities of a single 15A (1800W) or 20 A (2400W) circuit.
True, but... If I recall correctly, Krell FPB-600s were known to pull something like 6500W from line. That's 50A, short peaks of course. High-current amps driving sub-2-ohm speakers at significant SPLs can stress a 15A circuit, the more so the longer the circuit.
Finally, the recommendation of multiple earth grounds is not only wrong, it is dangerous and a violation of the NEC.
True and true. Grounding individual circuits to earth is a truly idiotic thing to do.
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Finally, the recommendation of multiple earth grounds is not only wrong, it is dangerous and a violation of the NEC. Even slight differences in resistance between different grounds would create a voltage differential, line noise and potentially dangerous ground loops in and around the structure. Just don’t.
I forgot, I was also going to ask about that from The Absolute Sound article. I was pretty sure I had read on this site tha this is an absolute no-no.
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To address the OP’s first question, yes, the power cable from the wall to the power conditioner is critically important, at least that is my personal experience. I recently upgraded the supply cable from the wall to my conditioner/distributor and it was the most impactful cable replacement I have made in my long journey with hifi. Sounds like you are going in the direction of dedicated circuits, but if you decide power conditioning would be helpful in the future, I recommend you splurge on the quality of the supply cable.
kn
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The Absolute Sound article posted by @chuck is very thorough and sounds right to my non-electrician ears. I wish it was available when I purpose built my listening room from the studs out 15 years ago, including the power lines from the breaker box. What I got right based on the article is a dedicated twisted 10 AWG twisted Romex line on a dedicated 20 amp circuit - complete with silver paste on the breaker and outlet contacts. What I wish I had done is running one or more additional lines for my audio and video equipment. Oh well, at least the phase is the same to all components.
Did this dedicated line make a difference? I think so. My system at the time was a modest powered integrated amp, a CDP, and some Totem tower speakers. Compared to my living room where this system was connected to a non-dedicated 15 amp 14 AWG line, when moved to my dedicated room the amplifier sounded both more relaxed and especially more dynamic. I would recommend using the highest gauge supply cable from the box that is practical, but nothing less than 10 gauge. One note, if you opt for 8 or 6 gauge and are forced to step down in the wall to 10 gauge to connect to your outlet, I believe code will require a junction box.
kn
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One note, if you opt for 8 or 6 gauge and are forced to step down in the wall to 10 gauge to connect to your outlet, I believe code will require a junction box.
It does, however it is more practical to terminate the large gauge wire at a small subpanel and run 10awg from there to receptacles.
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"Which will put me back up in the attic again, which is my least favorite place in this house..."
It's full of mannequin heads and creepy dolls, isn't it...
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You should plug directly into the generating plant at your local electric company.
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It's full of mannequin heads and creepy dolls, isn't it...
and let's not touch that basement door either, the padlock is there for a reason
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That pentangle on the floor isn't for decoration!
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My practice is to insure that the power conditioner has a robust power cord so I upgrade from the factory cord. I either assemble my own or, more recently I discovered that the Emotiva model XIEC-2-0 power cord meets my needs. It’s high quality design, very robust build quality and price point make it an incredible value. I purchased several during Emotiva’s recent sale.
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All of my upgrades have improved my audio system. The best upgrades, in my experience, in order of audio improvement were:
1. Speakers (3-way Floorstanders to Open Baffle plus subwoofer)
2. DAC (++ quality & expense)
3.Preamp (SS to tubes)
4.Amplifier (SS to tubes)
5.Speaker cables and Interconnects (tie)
6. Room treatments (but I already had a good room, as-built)
7.Power regenerator (but I already had good power)
8. Power cord upgrades
Your experience may vary. Everything matters, but not equally!
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One note, if you opt for 8 or 6 gauge and are forced to step down in the wall to 10 gauge to connect to your outlet, I believe code will require a junction box.
It does, however it is more practical to terminate the large gauge wire at a small subpanel and run 10awg from there to receptacles.
This was actually addressed in that article; however, in the article it was suggested to put the junction box as close to the outlet as possible. So what does that mean? Cut out the drywall so you can attach the work box to s stud next to the outlet you want to put in?
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Sounds like you are going in the direction of dedicated circuits, but if you decide power conditioning would be helpful in the future, I recommend you splurge on the quality of the supply cable.
@knownothing , I've had dedicated circuits since nineteen ninety and something, but my question was more related to using a power conditioner with a hard wired power cord and how much that would degrade afer market power cords from gear to that power conditioner.
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"Which will put me back up in the attic again, which is my least favorite place in this house..."
It’s full of mannequin heads and creepy dolls, isn’t it...
and let’s not touch that basement door either, the padlock is there for a reason
It’s an unfinished attic with no floor and covered in some kind of insulation that throws up clouds of nasty dust whenever it is disturbed. It is cold in the winter and hot in the summer and in general it is not a comfortable place to work.
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You should plug directly into the generating plant at your local electric company.
Thank you for a straight forward informative non-sarcastic answer to a non-sarcastic question.
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"And I realize that there are those that don’t believe in either"
It's not about believing. There are those who use objective facts, and those who use subjective opinions supported by any number of biases, realized or not. Those in the latter group fall for snake oil marketing tactics. Those in the former are true audiophiles.
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There are those who use objective facts, and those who use subjective opinions supported by any number of biases, realized or not.
Bias works both ways buddy. Realize or not.
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Fr starters if possible a dedicated 20 amp line to start ,then a high quality gold or rhodium over Copper AC outlet
I have currently a Niagra AQ 3000, next a Niagra 5000 the quality of power cord very important from AC outlet , and the Storm series or better complement their line conditioners
I have Mainly Tornado and Tornado Source power cords ,but do have 2 Thunders ,
much quieter backgrounds and dynamics far better with their grounding technologies and power correction , which is veryAudible at higher volume levels .
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I asked this same question to the fellow who designed Audioquest's terrific Niagara line of power conditions. He replied with an unequivocal 'yes', although he hastened to add that the conditioner's cable was only one of many that affected the sound; every upgraded power cable provides an iterative improvement and merely omitting one does not negate the benefits provided by the rest of the conditioner/cable plant.
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It's not about believing. There are those who use objective facts, and those who use subjective opinions supported by any number of biases, realized or not. Those in the latter group fall for snake oil marketing tactics. Those in the former are true audiophiles.
@squared80 , if you don't think that they work because you cannot hear the difference don't waste your time and money by using them; but there's also probably no point in wasting your time on threads related to the subject.
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in the article it was suggested to put the junction box as close to the outlet as possible. So what does that mean? Cut out the drywall so you can attach the work box to s stud next to the outlet you want to put in?
@immatthewj Yes that’s what it would mean.
Good luck wrestling 6awg and 10awg cables into a standard JB though. I also can’t immediately think of connectors appropriate for that job.
Using a subpanel is the sensible thing to do here. Subpanels are designed to accommodate large gauge wiring in the first place, so it would be far less labor and pain than mickey mousing a junction box together.
It will cost, I don’t know, $70 or $80 extra.
The alternative is to run multiple 10awg circuits. That's probably the route I will favor when I get around to doing this job in my house.
I know the insulation material you’re talking about. Wear a respirator, not a covid mask.
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@devinplombier , I just wanted to clarify that what the author was suggesting was beyond cutting out holes for duplexes and fishing romex down through them. I have no intention of "stepping down" 6 or 8 awg to 10.
As it is, every dedicated circuit (six so far) I have installed I did with 12-2. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the internet when I dived into the first project, and during subsequent expeditions I guess I wasn’t convinced that 12-2 wouldn't/couldn’t carry the current satisfactorily and I kind of got the impression from electricians I talked to (not on the internet) that 10 gauge is difficult to work with. I am still not convinced that gear plugged into 10 gauge will sound better, but maybe I am just in denial, and I may go back up in the attic and swap out three of the runs I did with 12 and use 10. Just in case.
For the time being, I guess my first goal is to get my new 2m power cords plugged straight into the wall with nothing in between, and that is relatively simple and wouldn’t even require a trip back up to the attic. Unless I wanted to space those three runs out some more where they go down the wall, and I guess I probably would.
I appreciate the respiratory advice related to working in the attic. I’ve gone from full blown respirators to dust masks to this last expedition--nothing. You probably understand what it’s like to work up there, crouched/kneeling/whatever on a plank that is sitting on a couple of ceiling joists or rafters or whatever one may call them, and all the other discomforts of working in an unfinished attic . . . the older I get the harder it gets and the easier and quicker I start cramping up when contorting my body to work in the places I need to work up there.
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You probably understand what it’s like to work up there, crouched/kneeling/whatever on a plank that is sitting on a couple of ceiling joists or rafters or whatever one may call them, and all the other discomforts of working in an unfinished attic . . . the older I get the harder it gets and the easier and quicker I start cramping up when contorting my body to work in the places I need to work up there.
@immatthewj I totally empathize. If it can make you feel any better, mine will entail spending a day in a spider-infested crawlspace with 18" clearance under the beams.
Honestly, before you go to too much trouble you might want to assess the worst load you’re ever likely to plug into your existing 12awg circuits, before you declare them inadequate. In my most humble opinion, unless you’re planning to biamp Apogee Scintillas with a quatuor of Krell KMA-800s you’re probably fine 🙂
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