@terrible : just forgeret about that " loading ". The person/man that posted knows nothing about. He loaded his Grado because the very low quality of the phono stage he used.
Yours is way different.
Btw, you are a beginner and through a thread and with the explanations of some really experts on the subject and wrong explanations fromm non-experts you will be more confused and probably you can't learn.
R.
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@ sandstone So I managed to fiddle with the RPM adjustments at the back of the turntable. I got it as close as I could to 33.33 and 45. Images below: https://imgbox.com/opqkwN6Thttp:// https://imgbox.com/xnAeQyBUThis has drastically changed the sound for the better, the base is back in the voices and otherwise. Aretha Franklin does not high pitched at all. The sound to me is swell. Thank you much for the help. @ chakster Should I still be fiddling with Anti-Skid? The cartridge/tonearm is not retracting or moving backwards at all. It seems fine at 2g. Though if I make it 1.5g, I probably will have to mess with the Anti-Skid. Is there anything more I need to do? I am pretty happy with the sound but then is there something I need to check so my records don’t get damaged? Also, I am using ST50 to clean the stylus. @ atmasphere The PS Audio link explains it very well especially for the scientifically uninitiated. Thank you for that. However, how does one know this to be the issue and how do I correct it on my phono stage? I don't even know if I have a function like that. There is of course the choice of MM and MC, and I have opted for MM. |
@chakster , Great explanation above Chak however, the recommended tracking force of the Grado is 1.5 grams. 2 grams is out of range for this cartridge and will change it's vertical compliance and bass performance which could tilt the performance and make the cartridge seem brighter. However, I agree. The speed problem is definitely going to raise the pitch audibly. But, then why did that not happen with the previous cartridge?
The tonearm should still be set up correctly and the pitch corrected with the controls in back. In the mean while terrible will learn all about turntables and will fly through the next cartridge set up which should be soon as this cartridge is not compatible with the performance of this system. He should have one of the better moving magnet cartridges in the $500 to $1000 range. |
Terrible, your links are not working. |
With a Hi-Fi Test Record (I think you bought it) you will be able to adjust anti skating, you can also measure tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency (just read the manual for the test record). You need some anti-skating, but not higher than tracking force. However, when you set tracking force and anti-skating to zero, when your tonearm is balanced above the record, you can see if there is a force that still moves your arm backwards, if you see it then you must level your turntable feet properly. Ideally there should not be any anti-skating force when the arm is balanced above the record, you apply tracking force (check with digital scale) and anti skating later.
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Dear @terrible : "
, and I have opted for MM. "
Your grado is not a MM design but MI design that's way different. You need to do nothing in your electronics about. Just forgeret as I told you two times before.
R. |
Dear @terrible : "" It seems fine at 2g. ""
It seems to whom because the manufacturer designed that Grado cartridge for a very specific VTF of 1.5grs. and setting up to 2grs. as " you like " is totally wrong.
R. |
@ mijostyn While what you sounds absolutely correct, the MM V2 cartridge before I damaged it was working fine, or at least I thought so. This pitch issue started when the Grado came in. However, what explains the change of pitch after RPM adjustments? Because the VTF is still 2g. Also, can you suggest some cartridges which would go with my system, please? Below are the RPM links that weren't showing up earlier. https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVGhttps://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVI@ rauliruegas Can you elaborate on the MI cartridge? Why is this, then, working with my MM turntable? @ chakster Got what you are saying. Asking you or anyone familiar with Clearaudio Concept anti-skating, if the thick black mark on the larger circular mound, below the red mark, is anti-skating zero. Please check the image in the link: https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVKThe red mark is anti-skating that is factory set up. |
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So it was pitch after all? We tried defining the terms at the start of the thread and that misunderstanding or misalignment of mutual comprehension led us all on a merry dance. Happy you found that it was in fact a pitch issue where everything was sharp due to incorrect platter speed.
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@chakster Got what you are saying. Asking you or anyone familiar with Clearaudio Concept anti-skating, if the thick black mark on the larger circular mound, below the red mark, is anti-skating zero. Please check the image in the link:
https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVK
The red mark is anti-skating that is factory set up.
Well, if this is anti-skating under the plinth then it’s the worst anti-skating I have seen in my life. Not surprised you have a problem using it, it’s so inconvenient. You can try maximum and minimum to find out where the side force is canceled (when the arm is balanced without tracking force), you will see it, if the arm is balanced above the record (not moving to any side) then anti-skating is zero.
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@terrible, From your pics, I'm reasonably certain that you have a Verify tonearm instead of a Satisfy tonearm. Check out instructions here in section 2.5.6 that may have what you are seeking re: antiskate. https://clearaudio.de/_assets/_pdf/manuals/tonearms/CA_Verify_E+D.pdf- My last thought: You've gotten plenty of guidance now on how to zero out and reset antiskate, and how to visually and then even electronically verify. But as you're still working thru all that, try something simpler. Set your VTF at 1.7g. That is within spec tolerance range for your existing cartridge See how it behaves and sounds. With your turntable speed no longer 11% out of compliance, and with everything else that you have improved with others help here, maybe you no longer have tracking/skipping/pitch issues and you can enjoy your system while refining your setup and contemplating needed cartridge upgrades. You've rec'd some very good info from others here and should be well on your way to managing your tt and system setup on your own. good listening! |
@terrible : This should be my last post to you. First than all re-read my very first post to you in the page 1 and after that this:
DOES NOT EXIST A MM TURNTABLE. EXIST JUST TURNTABLE ! !
What exist are different kind designs of cartridges and between others: MM, MI ( like your Grado. ) and LOMC ones.
The advantage of your Grado MI cartridge and your electronics is that that MI design comes with an internal 40mH of inductance and this fact makes that load impedance does not affect its overall performance.
You need to improve your knowledge levels because as I told you in one of my posts you show that as this thread go longer and longer by gentleman posts as more confused you are.
R. |
@ dalims4 Yes I read this post a while back. I have even ordered a Clearaudio Smart Scale which I think is made of cardboard. I also understand that he wants me to add 1.2g to the 1.5g stated by Grado for Blue before I adjust the anti-skate. However, what is confusing the ’F’ out of me is how to operate the anti-skate button. I cannot figure out what ’Zero’ AS is on the contraption under the turntable. Since I don’t know the start point, everything else is difficult, hence, I am not messing with it. @ noromance It is certainly one of the issues and correcting the RPM seems to have corrected that issue. However, I spent around 3 hours last night listening to records. On one song towards the end of the record, in a Norah Jones album, I felt I heard sibilance. On other records, it seemed fine. Don’t know if I can even identify sibilance correctly. @ chakster The complication does not end with the fact that the AS is under the turntable and there are no correct markings, to begin with. Apparently, the AS instructions in the manual are correct if you look at it as if you are looking through a transparent platter, which basically means whatever the instruction manual suggests, counter and clockwise are exactly the opposite in practice. This is according to Musical Surrounding, Clearaudio distributor in USA. Difficult to know how many turns of the screw takes you where. @ sandstone I am not sure if there is a black Verify arm and I think I remember checking with the distributor about the arm, and they told me it’s a black Satisfy, which is out of production now. But not sure. If you look at the Verify manual, the AS contraption is not exactly the same. And yes you are right, there is more than enough good guidance for me to rectify things. I have done so in some places too, however, my issue is not with the theory of it all, I get it now; thanks to all of you. It is the specific AS on this damn turntable. I don’t know the start point on it. If I go by the Verify manual, the black mark is AS for 2.4g VTF. This means, my AS is off currently. If you look at the mark on the screw, it is not aligned to the black mark on the circular post. https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVK @ rauliruegas I understood mate I do not have load impedance issues because I have a great phono stage but I have to beg your pardon as I don’t understand much of what you write. As is my English is not very fluent, being an Indian, yours does not help either. But I know you have noble intent. If sometime soon I do not understand how to operate the AS on this turntable, I am going to junk it and go for an SME 6 Classic or 12A. It is a company owned by Indians, so I can expect easy service as I’ll buy straight from the company. |
I just came across this: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/needle-sliding-across-my-records.414567/In the relevant post, this is what the OP says about Clearaudio AS: Thanks to all for your input to this problem. Turns out my VTF was way on the light side.
Here is how it happened. While waiting for this TT on backorder I read a lot of reviews. One reviewer noted that the tracking force seemed a bit on the heavy side once he started to serious listen after the break in period. Sure enough he was right and he made an adjustment. Musical Surroundings also suggests that VTF be checked due to shipping in a youtube video on how to set up this table.
As it turns out, my factory settings were probably absolutely accurate. Even though the reading I was getting was 3 grams instead of 2. But here is the problem and where I knew just enough to be dangerous. The tonearm has a magnetic bearing and therefore the measurement needs to be taken on the side of the platter rather than on the platter. There is not much room there and it can be tricky. You have to put a record on the platter and then build up some material on the side so that when you put the scale on the material it will be even with the record and then weigh the tracking force. Turns out 2 grams where this tonearm needs to be measured is basically a reading of 3 grams on the platter. So I was running this thing about a gram light.
Unbelievable. So right now it is tracking better, no more skating off the record when cueing a record, detail is enhanced and bass is more pronounced. I am now in a much better mood. Oh, and surface noise on older records is much less noticeable.
And here is the reason it was happening with some records and not with others, of course I am referring to the tonearm falling off the record. Lighter records is where it was occurring more. My heavier 180 gram records were much less effected. If I go by this, then what I have measured to be 2, would actually be lesser than 1.5 or 1.5. Keeps getting crazier!!! |
@terrible,
Hang in there you will learn in time.
The first thing to make sure to do before any other setup advice is to level the turntable at the platter.
I don't mean making sure the surface it's on is level. Put a spirit level on the turntable platter and turn the platter to see that's its level font to back and right to level.
Turntable and rack can be level and the platter might be a little off.
Since platter level can affect anti-skating, it's important to do this first (Also buy a blank record to verify anti-skate response. I found that my Technics 1200G anti-skate dial is close to being accurate but very slightly over compensates).
Not saying this is your current problem but it's a necessary step.
Also, in the future, might be good to get a turntable with better anti-skate adjustments.
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Since platter level can affect anti-skating, it's important to do this first (Also buy a blank record to verify anti-skate response. I found that my Technics 1200G anti-skate dial is close to being accurate but very slightly over compensates). Anti-skating adjust with his Hi-Fi News Test Record |
This is the response I got from Stefan of Clearaudio: Here is how I recommend to proceed to completely re-set the anti-skating position of the magnetic bearing tonearm (“0”): - Demount the cartridge - Adjust the counterweight so, that the tonearm “floats” while not in rest position - Now twist the anti-skating-screw to get the position of the headshell of the tonearm right above the edge of the platter (where the lead-in groove would be) - You now can mark the position of the anti-skating-screw by drawing a line with a pen from screw head towards tonearm foot - Now then there’s a simple rule, that unfortunately is valid for Clearaudio Concept MM/MC cartridges only: twist the anti-skating screw 3 times anticlockwise if you want to mount the clearaudio Concept MM/any other MM V2 cartridge and 4 times if you want to mount the Clearaudio Concept MC cartridge - finally mount your cartridge again and check the tracking force Please note this is a quick guide for the standard clearaudio cartridges. If you want to be more precise just use the “traditional way”: get a testrecord (like clearaudio trackability test record) and set anti-skating force by checking the tracking with oscilloscope (or listen to the test signals via headphone/the speakers, which is less precise). There is no rule of thumb for 3rd party cartridges, please understand.
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Terrible, take a deep breath and relax. It is not that hard. Turning tha antiskating control one way increases anti skating pulling the arm more strongly away from the platter's spindle. Turn it the other way and the pull is less strong. Turning the adjustment all the way in one direction will pull the arm very strongly away from the spindle the other way not strong at all although it might not turn it off all the way. You set your tracking force 1st then adjust the anti skating control so that the arm drifts very slowly towards the spindle when you put it down between grooves in the run out area. If you have a record with a blank side even better. You can also do what Chak mentions and get a test record although some disagree with this method. Anti skating is so ambiguous it is really a ballpark measurement. The general felling is less is better than more. The slow drift method is championed by Peter Ledermann of Soundsmith and Frank Schroder the tonearm designer.
As for cartridges, the Goldring 1042 and Audio Technica VM750SH would be my choices. |
@mijostyn Thanks for the recommendation of cartridges. Next month I am planning to pull the trigger on SME 12A. Maybe I'll use the Goldring 1042 with that.
I am going to take care of the Concept VTF and AS on Sunday. Hopefully I'll get it right.
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Terrible, if you have problems I will be around all weekend. I can download the manual for that table. You can do it with just a little patience.
The SME is a fine turntable and with the Goldring will be exceptional.
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If you need a proper turntable with VTA on the fly, detachable headshell on magnesium tonearm... look for brand new Technics SL1200G (or cheaper GR model) and don’t get the advice from a person who listens to his records with dust cover on :)
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@mijostyn So I did as suggested. It took counterclockwise two turns and one-fourth to reach the correct AS for 1.5g. Less was making the tonearm go out of the record and more made it travel towards the spindle. I might have damaged the record too as I don't have a blank record. However, while the cartridge tracked fine, I found that there was discomforting distortion on highs. The same song through Roon played pleasantly well. I again checked the RPM, it was very close to 33.33. The VTF was 1.5 and thereabouts. I did not mess with it further and left it as is. What do I need to do to correct this distortion on highs?
@chakster I am unable to figure the distributor for Technics in India. The problem with the dealers and distributors here is they seldom are able to provide quality after-sales. They just about sell the turntable, they have no clue about things we are discussing here. One of the big reasons I have opted for SME is because the guys who sell it here are also the owners of SME. It'll help in getting help on turntable issues.
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Ok terrible, Which channel is distorting? If the left channel is distorting you have too much anti skating. If the right channel is distorting you have too little.
Don't listen to people who destroy their records by not protecting them from dust. It is a hygiene issue like brushing your teeth.
@chakster , do Russians have a lot of cavities? I am not aware of the demographics.
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They just about sell the turntable, they have no clue about things we are discussing here. One of the big reasons I have opted for SME is because the guys who sell it here are also the owners of SME. It’ll help in getting help on turntable issues.
Technics is about to buy and forget about troubles.
Find in your local Bollywood night club:)
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@mijostyn I could hear it coming out of both left and right!
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Then it is not an anti skating issue. Something else is going on. Maybe a bad cartridge.
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Level the platter and check the azimuth.
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Dear @terrible : " Next month I am planning to pull the trigger on SME 12A. "
That is a great decision, you can't go wrong with. Very good turntable and very good tonearm and yes you can start with the Goldring cartridge selection.
Have fun and enjoy it.
R.
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Don’t listen to people who destroy their records by not protecting them from dust.
@mijostyn If you can detect some dust let me know:
A typical "destroyed record" as I never used ultrasonic cleaners, I don’t wash records, I just buy them in perfect shape and I do not use dustcovers on my turntables. This rare record was made in 1980:
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@chakster , I love those screws. You have a great housecleaner. You need to pay her more and stop spending money on cartridges.
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The housecleaner is me, but can't stop with cartridges @mijostyn :)
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Terrible, now you have two votes for the SME, a Mexican and a Jew. Don't hold out for the Russian. Unlike his ancestors he is in bed with the Japanese.
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Keep the stylus clean! Do it after playing a side! Gunk on the stylus will cause distortion and mistracking!
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Congrats!
It should not matter which scale you use. The one you had must have been defective in some way.
Spin away,
Mike
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@terrible +1 It might be interesting to look at the stylus of that Grado with a microscope.
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@mijostyn I doubt it. It reads the 5gm weight perfectly. I think there's a difference in the height it measures it at.
@atmasphere What should one look for?
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Buy a new stylus for your Grado, you can even find a better stylus and it will be an upgrade in sound quality.
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What should one look for?
It should look nice and smooth like you see of photos of syli online. It sits on a little platform of sorts and should be perpendicular to it. Usually they are swaged or glued in. I'm thinking there may be an issue with it- since your new cartridge seems to work so well.
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Dear @terrible : No audiophile but the cartridge manufacturer really can tell you with the specific toold the true and real condition of a stylus tip.
The ones that think can do it are only dreaming with eyes opened.
R.
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terrible, I don't think anyone has mentioned this but you might consider lowering the tonearm a slight, slight bit, so that the cartridge is tilting upwards. That will help flush out the sound some and it may help with the higher signal. Aside from that, if you have a gain adjustment in your phonostage, I would try turning that down.
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@atmasphere @chakster Why do you guys want me to buy a new Grado stylus. Are you assuming the stylus may be damaged? A few bounces across a record can damage a stylus is it. ? Thought it was made of tougher stuff. Though sound wise I don't have an issue right now. I think a few more records down I'll get a fairer idea.
@goofyfoot adjusting the tonearm was one of the first things I had done. Getting it parallel to the record.
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Terrible, no a few bouces should not bother it. I think atmasphere thinks you got another new cartridge and was thinking the bad sounding one was a previous cartridge and not the Grado. Ralph, he got the cartidge sounding better by finally getting the arm ajusted correctly.
Looking at a stylus to determine wear in not easy. It takes a special high powered (read very expensive) microscope and you have to know what you are looking for. Even the cheap usb microscopes we use for alignment purposes are not strong enough to detect moderate amounts of stylus wear. It is just the very extreme tip that wears. I can do it with a binocular medical microscope with special lighting but it is like looking at a CT scan, one slice at a time because the depth of field is very small.
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terrible, a tonearm where the cartridge is a slight bit higher than the back of the tonearm will creatte a fuller sound. I said it will flush out the sound but I meant flesh out the sound. A tonearm where the cartridge is lower than the back o the tonearm will bring more detail at the expense of sounding too shrill. Yes, I realize your tonearm right now is exactly parallel.
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Why do you guys want me to buy a new Grado stylus.
I'm was not suggesting any such thing.
I misread the situation and had thought you got a different cartridge and thus solved the problem. Re-reading I see now that it was gauge instead. Either way I'm glad you got it sorted- good work!
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terrible, I would say that Vandenhul is probably right but he did state ’in my expeience’ and the likelyhood is that he never had the same problem that you’re experiencing. My cartridge too is in a slightly lower position than the weight on my tonearm. However, if the sound is too shrill, then havng the cartridge a slight bit higher than the weight of the tonearm is the antidote. It shouldn’t be that difficult to determine where your tonearm height is and then adjust it up or down to see what sounds best. If you find that it doesn’t matter and that your cartridge is still sounding shrill, then I’d try turning down the phono amp gain. If that doesn’t work, then I’d load a different cartridge.
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Why do you guys want me to buy a new Grado stylus. Are you assuming the stylus may be damaged? A few bounces across a record can damage a stylus is it. ? Thought it was made of tougher stuff. Though sound wise I don’t have an issue right now. I think a few more records down I’ll get a fairer idea.
You have no clue about condition of your stylus, you don’t have even a macro lens to check it (but actually you need a microscope to see it), you made claims many times how bad is the sound, your stylus has been used with the wrong tracking force and wrong anti-skating for some time. Every stylus have its life span, your stylus is elliptical and life span is short even at recommended tracking force.
If you are done with adjustment and everything is right then you can finally buy a new Grado stylus (it’s cheap as chips). You can even buy a better stylus from the next model (they are many options).
You even mentioned some new cartridge you want to buy, but actually all you need is a new stylus, not a new cartridge. Grado styli cost something like $150, some models like 8MZ, TLZ and XTZ with advanced profiles are the best and more expensive, but fully compatible with your cartridge body. New stylus from a higher model is a good upgrade for your cartridge. You can use old stylus for experiments (when you learn things how to adjust everything), when you're done and learned some lessons you can add new high quality Grado stylus.
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