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A question about tube rolling

Hi Ya’all,

At the ripe old age of 70, I have discovered tube rolling.

Up until now, I have simply been about getting good tubes, say Telefunken or GE or Siemens, stick ‘em in there, and phougheadaboudit

I bought a Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 because I just wasn’t getting what I thought I should be getting out of my Koetsu Onyx and Leopard from my Beard P505.

Out of the box (pun unintended), the Tube Box made an immediate improvement.

But, still not quite there. I looked at the tubes and they were unbranded. So I went shopping on eBay and found a pair of Telefunken red tips for $280.

It turns out that the seller lived a half hour away, and so he drove them over to me.

it also turns out that he had 10,000+ tubes - or so he says - in his basement. So he comes with the set that I paid for, and three other sets, and he leaves them with me.

As some of you know, I’m a cheap rat bastard who refuses to spend more than $0.50 on lamp wire for my speaker cable (ok I lied, I do have Monster cable). So even though he explains that he’s got exotic Valvos and Teslas and who knows what else, costing up to $1,900 a pair, I stick to a $500 ceiling ‘cause … I’m a cheap rat bastard … and there’s also that law of diminishing returns sorta thing.

A week later, he brings me four more sets.

One of those sets cost $800. And they sound, well better (although there was a situation where a $50 tube that he brought for me to put in one of the line stages of the Beard sounded better than the $250 one.).

I have listening sessions once a week, so I got my guests involved one evening. I used David Crosby’s “Laughing” from “If Only I Could Remember My Name” and we listened to it over and over, with each of the four sets of tubes, and I explained to them what to listen for in the bass guitar line, the pedal steel at the top, Crosby’s voice, the chorus (and particularly if Joni Mitchell’s and Steven Stills voice were distinctly recognizable as THEIR voices, with nuanced inflection, not just voices separated out but not of any distinct characterization), the acoustic depth and colorations around each voice and instrument, if everything was planted in a specific location on the soundstage, and last but not least, the size - width, breadth and height - of the stage. Then I asked them to pick the set that they liked best and to explain why, according to each of the parameters.

They had so much fun doing that, that going forward I will be keeping tubes of different signatures just to do these exercises with new guests, as they volunteered after the listening sessions that they felt that they learned to hear in a way that they never considered before.

Which was exactly the point of the exercise.

But I digress.

The tube guy said he had some more tubes to try out.

This time I say “Ok. Hit me with your best shot. Throw the very best pair of tubes you have at me. Just sock-it-to-me! (There I just dated myself). And just don’t tell me what they cost!”

So he comes with five sets. Some are really interesting, they have … getters? And one is that best shot. And one is a set that he says are a little weird but he thinks that they will work.

So, up until now, I have been able to hear differences in each set. And some are better, some worse, some do some things better, some do other things better, some are just different.

Of the five, I just go straight for that best shot.

Holy. Efffing. Crap.

Let me say that again, for effect.

Holy. Effing. Crap.

I had thought that my system was up there. And, well, it is: one can say that it is detailed, precise, deep, exciting, dramatic.

This is now… I guess the words I would use are true, and honest…and effortless. Whatever it is, it’s a whole other level.

I did not think that just one pair of 12AX7s or ECC83s could make such a humongous difference.

They are from 1957, and cost twice as much as the Tube Box that they are going in

So, the question is …. There was to be a question, remember? It says so right up there at the top, in the subject line. The question is: I guess I know the answer. Let me put it this way: has anyone had a similar nirvana-like experience just from upgrading tubes, and should I be paying these kinds of prices for them?

128x128unreceivedogma
mulveling's avatar
mulveling
2,036 posts
 

There are SO MANY good phono options under $2K.

You can get a Pass Xono for well under $1500, the PS Audio Stellia is recommended a lot a goes under $2K used (though I haven’t heard this one). You could even just get a Bob’s Devices Sky or CineMag 1254 SUT box to cover the MC gain with your existing ProJect in MM mode, and that would make a huge change in sound and you could still tube-roll. These CineMags sound GREAT with Koetsu. Rogue Ares Magnum is a halfway decent tube phono with the 1254 SUT built in, and you have even more tube rollong options there (12AX7 and 12AU7). Trumpet MC is only 1300 new and lots of tubes (4x 12AX7, 2x 12AU7)! I’ve even used it with a Coralstone diamond.

Anyways, to point of your original question, biggets wow / nirvana moments I’ve had with subs of same-tube type are:

  • Mazda silver plate 12AX7 - love these, incredibly dynamic and detailed with sweet mids, although a little bright. Like a super-charged Telefunken ribbed plate, with sweeter mids too. Sometimes under Cifte or Belvu labels. Hard to find. Avoid the Mazda / Cifte 5751, those are bright as hell. Like you, I find Mullards nice but nothing that sticks around in my tube slots for long.
  • Tung-Sol round plate, black glass 6SN7GT
    Of course - these are either the best thing since sliced bread or the most overrated tube of all time depending on whom you ask. Just a great, all-around musical tube in my mind. Seems to give you "more" of everything, somehow - bass, midrange, treble. I remember reading a quote about these by an old tube seller: "If you can’t find the music with these, it’s not the tube’s fault!". I agree.

Yes, I’ve paid good money for my reserves of both of these tubes (plus many others I’m fond of)! Then I’ve heard lots of really big differences by swapping similar-but-different tube types - but that might be considered "cheating" and sometimes you will definitely be changing the parameters and "sound" of the amp. Like 12BH7 for 12AU7, KT120 for KT88 (or vice versa). Had an old headphone amp with tube 3 slots - 1 input and 2 outputs - where you could swap almost anything with adapaters. It originally shipped with all 6SN7, but we quickly found it sounded far better with 5687 outputs (lower output impedance), and then later with 6BL7GTA or 6BX7GT. On the input slot a 2C51 (w/ adapter) was found to be much better than 6SN7, and then Western Electric 396A was the best of all. Boy, that was a lot of fun back then.

larsman's avatar
larsman
2,099 posts
 

Yep - bought a pair of Western Electric 300B tubes for my headphone amp to replace the Gold Lions, and they made it sound like an amp farther up the product line from the original, but there is nothing farther up the product line. At about $1200/pair, they were well worth it to me. 

mashif
289 posts
 

I'm new to tube rolling as well. I bought an LTA MZ2 preamp about a year ago. It was used and came with a pair of 12SN7s of unknown history. Shortly afterwards, I bought a pair of Sylvania VT231s and it was a very different sound but not what I was looking for. 

I consulted with Brent Jessee and traded those for a pair of NOS RCA 6SN7GTB. The difference is dramatic. I'm sensitive to sibilance and these tubes almost completely eliminate that and present a warm rich sound that really compliments my rather analytical speakers. 

None of these were very expensive but it has wet my appetite for trying other tubes. But knowing which ones to look for requires years of experience I don't have. Working with Brent Jessee to find what you're looking for is highly recommended. His knowledge and willingness to help is a rare quality that I appreciate. 

 

vair68robert
630 posts
 

Wow , what a great experience , meeting a tube guy is like winning the lottery for tube rolling . I will say that rolling 2 exact same tubes is a lot easier than my situation where I have 6 tubes of 3 different types used in a Tavish Designs phono preamp .  Yes I had more than one AH HA moment because of the 3 different types and to make things more complicated the interaction between the 3 types .  Even then there is the adjusting on the fly of the capacitance ( I use an MI cartridge ) that creates another level of ah ha .

It's nice to hear that a fellow 70 something uses David Crosby's album as ones litmus test , since this is my favorite number one album . 

unreceivedogma's avatar
unreceivedogma OP
1,010 posts
 

I asked the expert audiophile “DeepSeek” 😝 to: compare the Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 to more expensive phono stages. 

ANSWER: 

When comparing the **Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2** to more expensive phono preamplifiers, it’s important to consider the additional features, build quality, and performance improvements that come with higher price points. Below is a comparison of the Tube Box DS2 with some of its more expensive competitors:

---

### **1. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Sutherland Engineering PH3D**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design, aluminum chassis, and upgradeable components.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Sutherland Engineering PH3D**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionally clean, detailed, and transparent with a neutral sound signature.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading and gain.
  - **Build**: High-quality components with a focus on precision engineering.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The PH3D offers superior transparency and detail retrieval, making it a better choice for audiophiles seeking a neutral, high-fidelity sound. The Tube Box DS2, however, provides tube warmth and is more affordable.

---

### **2. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Audio Research PH9**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, rich, and detailed tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Audio Research PH9**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionaly detailed, dynamic, and spacious with a tube-driven sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with extensive adjustability.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Significantly higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The PH9 offers a more refined and spacious soundstage, making it a top choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides a similar tube warmth at a fraction of the cost but lacks the PH9's ultimate refinement.

---

### **3. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II**:
  - **Sound**: Clean, detailed, and neutral solid-state sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading.
  - **Build**: High-quality components with a robust design.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The Black Cube SE II offers exceptional clarity and detail, making it a favorite among audiophiles who prefer a neutral sound. The Tube Box DS2, with its tube warmth, is better suited for those seeking a richer, more colored sound.

---

### **4. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Simaudio Moon 310LP**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Simaudio Moon 310LP**:
  - **Sound**: Clean, detailed, and dynamic solid-state sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading and gain.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The Moon 310LP offers superior clarity and detail retrieval, making it a better choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides tube warmth and is more affordable.

---

### **5. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. EAR Yoshino 324**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **EAR Yoshino 324**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionally warm, rich, and detailed tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with extensive adjustability.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Significantly higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The EAR Yoshino 324 offers a more refined and luxurious tube sound, making it a top choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides a similar tube warmth at a much lower cost but lacks the ultimate refinement of the 324.

---

 

### **Conclusion**:
The **Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2** holds its own against more expensive phono preamplifiers by offering a warm, detailed tube sound and versatile features at a mid-range price. While more expensive models like the **Sutherland Engineering PH3D**, **Audio Research PH9**, and **EAR Yoshino 324** offer superior refinement, detail retrieval, and build quality, they come at a significantly higher cost. The Tube Box DS2 is an excellent choice for those seeking tube warmth and high performance without breaking the bank. However, for audiophiles with larger budgets and a desire for the ultimate in sound quality, the more expensive options may be worth the investment.

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