I'm pretty interested in these transmission-line, full-range speakers. Has anyone spent serious time with them? How do they compare to other contenders around $16K?
Unfortunately, I'd have to fly to SoCal for an audition, so I'd like to vet them as thoroughly as possible before committing the time and expense. Press has been very positive but also very limited, and user impressions are scarce on the web.
That's great to hear that you found your desired match for these speakers. It just goes to show how different amp topologies can provide satisfaction with the same speaker. I recently got to listen to the Crescendos with my LM 508ia and the sound was riveting.
I've had the Crescendo 2's for about 8 months and love them. My Ayre V-5xe amp was a real mismatch - glare, over detailed harmonies and light bass. I was scratching my head on where to look first, cables or amp (It turned out to be both). I then home auditioned a Pass Labs XA25 (as in 25 wpc) and never looked back. It's a terrific amp with this speaker. Stereophile recently reviewed the XA25 and bench measurements show clipping occurs at 80 wpc @ 8 Ohms and 130 wpc @ 4 Ohms. ! Their definition of clipping is when THD + noise equals 1% distortion. Changing out the tonearm cable was the icing on the cake.
Any new Crescendo owners love to share their experience with this speaker? I'm considering upgrading to it this year. It's between these and the Coincident Total Victory Vs for me. Are the long-term owners still loving their Crescendos?
Roger recommended the standard EML 300B in my LM508IA and those are the ones I used as well as the Sophia 300B Mesh Plates; the EMLs are more transparent/dynamic but the Sophia's are more organic sounding and musical...
Seeing as there are a few Line Magnetic 508ia cognoscenti on here, I have a question regarding your 300B driver tube experience. Has anyone used one of either the Elrog 300B or the EML 300B XLS as their driver. I know they do not meet standard 300B spec, and am concerned about using them with the Line Magnetic. I just need reassurance that they will work.
Wig, Tone and timbre are what I was seeking with my foray into the SET genre. Transparency, resolution and superior nuance were beyond my expectation. There are definitely similarities with our audio system development/ evolution. Charles
My listening space is 20'W X 25'L X10"H with two entry ways; one on the left and one on the right. Typical listening is around the 9 o clock position and 10 to 11 o clock would rock the house. The LM is so Much more dynamic than the Vitus with better mid-range magic and mid-bass.
Who would have thought that a 48 Watt SET would be more transparent, open and resolving...
Bill, I agree with what you’ve written and certainly appreciate your rationale for owning both a tube and solid state amplifiers. Some people own multiple systems for the thrill of different presentations with a diverse collection of components and speakers.
One of the great aspects of High End Audio is the enormous choice of product genres to explore. With experience and patience gained over the years, one can develop an audio system to uniquely match their desired sound. This is an attribute that is underappreciated in this endeavor I believe. We are free to go in whatever direction our ears lead us.
I’ve found my desired sound and music reproduction fulfilled as have others. For others it’s a never ending search which for them provides the challenge they seek down the path toward nirvana. Home audio system assembly is really an ultimate form of self expression. You begin with a blank canvas and create as you see fit..
It is such a joy to build a music collection over the years and be able to sit back and enjoy listening to masterful musicians that you admire. I love listening to music. Charles
Charles and mapman I have always appreciated both of your contributions to this site. Good stuff!
I enjoy more than one house sound as no speaker/amp combo does everything perfectly .... at least to my liking. There are always trade offs as we know. That is why I will always own at least one tube amp and one SS amp to run my speakers. I go back and forth and enjoy each for a season before switching.
I will always own a tube amp as I love them aesthetically, emotionally, and sonically. I love the SET tube sound, but in the end find them limiting on the speakers I have owned over the years. Not limiting in terms of musicality, emotion, or tone. However they don’t provide the same scale, foundation, and sense of utter ease and control at high volumes. At least not at the level of high quality SS watts. Trade offs and the reason I will always own two different amps. This is only my opinion and experience. No, I have not experienced enough combinations to say my current opinion is truth for all. Also, as you both have said there is no truth in this world of subjectivity.
I bet a 45-50 watt SET tube amp is in my future to enjoy!
Charles I share my enthusiasm and whatever knowledge I might if someone is interested but I hesitate to recommend them just because I like them. I think we differ a bit there perhaps.
Reason being they are totally different than what most are used to hearing. A totally different flavor of sound that usually takes time to get used to before falling in love although with a lot of familiar and tasty ingrdients of good sound to offer right out of the gate.
Also those who use radial or omnidirectional speakers are a minority so they are clearly not for everyone otherwise the reverse would be true.
If one is game to try than I am all in. But I probably more often than not tend to recommend more mainstream options for most unless there is some good reason to encourage them to try something radically different, like a history of failure with another approach.
There is the in home audition period and guarantee as an insurance policy so that helps.
Whereas with amps, what I recommend will largely be determined by what speakers will be used. If one wants to start with an amp and build form there, that’s one perfectly fine way to go about it though I would argue start with speaker/room integration because that matters perhaps more than anything and one usually has limited ability to change the sound of their room. Different speaker design, no single one or type will tend to work best in different rooms. That’s pretty much a given. Also choice of amp will determine what speakers are a good match and some choices, like choosing a limited power amp, will likely limit speaker choices most.
My job is to deliver computer based solutions (not audio though I cut my teeth in and sold audio and home electronics for a brief period in college many years ago)) and that means being solution centric and largely technology agnostic and that’s pretty much the way I roll.
I think it started when I worked for Radio Shack first as a salesman and later briefly as a store manager. We were taught that when someone walked in the store they had some problem (like a blown tube or fuse) or were looking for something (like a particular hifi) and our job was to figure out what and solve their problem and then make a sale. Good advice!
Exactly ! On interesting forum discussions such as this we as individuals can only contribute the results of our various listening experiences. I admittedly tend to happily share my perspective regarding tube and especially SET amplifiers based on my discovery and long ownership of them. the move toward them and away from previous solid state amps was a pivotal moment for me.
I've read many posts by you recounting your happiness and enthusiasm with class D amplifiers and Ohm Walsh speakers. I understand this as it is clear they have had a very positive and impactful influence along your journey. This is logical as we tend to talk/write about what we have experienced with resulting good outcomes. Charles
Mapman, I don't know how I could have made that point any more clear. This whole endeavor is subjective. you listen and either you like it or you want something different in some particular manner . My choice of 8 watt amp is no more or less subjective than your choice of a 500 watt amp. We both have chosen what suits us best to satisfy our respective goals.
This is why I seriously suggested to Bill he should try a high power SS/class D amplifier. Wig went this route with the Vitus amp but found the LM 508ia with 48 watts to be better sounding. However for Bill it is quite possible the Vitus or your 500 watt Bel Canto could be the better solution for his needs.
I don't believe my taste or ears are better than yours or anyone else, I just know what is the better option for me. So although I can relate to Wig choosing the 48 watt SET amp over the 400 watt solid state amp. I acknowledge this wouldn't be the choice for others. In no way am I making any proclamation as to what is universally best, hardly. Charles
Charles being happy or not is a purely individual subjective determination. Its fine as a personal recommendation to like minded individuals but not reliable to predict what will happen with the next random guy who tries. How many people are "happy" with a particular solution is a much better indicator.
Thanks for the comments guys. Sksos, I used the Zeros for the same exact reason which suggests to me you wanted better bass, volume, and dynamics with the M60 rated at 60 watts. That is my current issue with tube amps rated at 60 watts with the Crescendos. I am missing last last bit of refinement and control at higher volumes. This is not to say the sound is not beautiful, as it is, however better control at higher volumes is a nice to have also.
Wig, one final question. How large is your room and at what volume do you listen when off the leash? Thanks again. Remember, my room is very large as mentioned above. When off the leach I measure sound levels at 90 - 92 db weighted slow C range.
An OTL would surely welcome a nice easy to drive 12 ohm load, this makes perfect sense. The Triode Corp and Line Magnetic SET amps do very well with the Cresendo's 6 ohm flat load. Both of these have terrific quality output transformers and serious stout power supplies.This is why these amplifiers are so heavy (and sound so divine). Charles
Sorry for the late response just been very busy! Yes the Zero's with the Atmasphere and Crescendo combo worked better than just the Atmasphere M60's alone. You are correct that OTL's like a flat high impedance load and I set the Zero's so the Atmasphere saw a 12 ohm load not the 6 ohm load the Crescendos normally present. Got better bass and could play louder and yes the Zero's are not as transparent as going without but we all choose pluses and minuses and in the end the M60's with the Zero's on the AZ was a better sounding alternative.
Wig, Your’re a pure example of what I was describing in my earlier post today regarding higher power amplifiers. Their potential advantages are a matter of sonic priorities of an individual listener.
The very highly regarded Vitus with 400 watts and yet you replaced it with a 48 watt SET. Quite clearly you are very happy with this switch. To be fair I could see someone making the opposite choice to the much more powerful Vitus and being happy. I can easily believe you when you say it sounds much better. DHT SET just do some things like no other type of amp and this includes push pull pentode type tube amps, they are just different. No amplifier does everything right for every listener. This is why a person has to know what it is they are searching for as for certain either of these amplifiers are superb in the right setting. Wig, my taste would lead me to the same choice as you.This is not a put down of the mighty Vitus by any means. A well executed SET with enough power is my "just right" cup of tea. Wig I know you are having a ball with your music reproduction. Charles
$5K is correct and my LM 508 IA replaced a Vitus RI-100 which is 400+ watts into 4 ohms and not a down grade at all plus the LM sounds much better but I'm partial to tubes...
granny sksos1 could answer best but I suspect zeros might add value if tried with Atmasphere OTL running Crescendos having impedance as described.
Atmasphere seems to lean towards 16 ohm speakers as being better. Given that 6 ohm nominal load may perform reasonably well perhaps (or not) but there is room for improvement in terms of ratio of input/output imedance which determines performance (up to a point). Zeros would provide that if needed.
The LM518 is a 22 watt 845 amp for around $5000. That was the one I thought Wig had. His 508 is an 805 tube based amp that shows an $18,000 price. Nice amp for sure and most likely enough power for me, but the cost 😢
Bill, I get your point regarding the Triode Corp TRX 845 PSET mono blocks, they are huge and heavy as well as expensive (which is relative). The Triode/Cresendo pairing sounds better than so many amplifier/speaker combinations at the shows that are far more expensive. At CES 3 years consecutively the Triode/Cresendo was among the very best sounding systems regardless of cost that I heard. Charles
Bill, The 48 watt LM 508ia is less expensive than the 22 watt LM 219ia The 508ia could possibly be a better match with the Cresendo given the increased power. My suspicion is both of these LM amplifiers would sound exceptionally good. Charles
I am aware of that Mapman and that is why I am wondering why they were used with the Cresendos are they are 6ohm speakers with steady impedance and tube amp friendly. I suppose OTL amps like 16 ohm loads and perhaps this is the reason?
Zeros are typically used to improve the performance of a high output impedance tube amp with speakers representing a harder load to drive in regards to impedance (and phase angle?).
Better performance is always a plus in my book however performance alone does not necessarily mean better sound which is to a significant extent a largely subjective judgement.
Zeros would add nothing and perhaps even reduce performance used in the wrong cases like with most SS amplifiers that inherently have much lower output impedance than most all tube amps..
Wig, my mistake. Your 508 LM is a much more expensive amp that I bet is amazing. Seems it is also out of my reach. However, congrats on the combo as I am sure it is amazing sounding.
AZ selling direct when they have dealers is totally wrong. That is why they don't have many dealers. Either you sell direct or you have dealers because it can't work both ways. I feel doing business this way degrades the product.
Bill, This is why at the end of the day everyone simply must trust what they hear and be content. Two people can be in the same listening room critiquing a system and comparing/swapping components and form very different impressions that are "equally " valid. Someone could listen to your system and prefer the tube amplifier while your clear preference is the Lyngdorf 2170. This is not uncommon as people key in and are drawn to various sonic attributes that they place higher value on.
It’s very possible you’d enjoy the Crescendos with even more powerful amplifiers than your Lyngdorf, say maybe 400 to 500 watts. Conversely another listener may feel that this is the wrong direction and believes that the sound quality takes a backwards step. Different ears,different priorities and taste. I believe that you should try a very high power class of D amplifier, it could very possibly be the ideal pathway for your needs. There are a variety of amplifier choices for this excellent speaker that would prove sucessful matches, just depends on what someone is trying to accomplish musically. Robert Lee consistently chooses to use the Triode Corp amplifier more often than not, I can understand why based on my listening exposure to this pairing. Charles
The LM amp has always interested me, but at 22 watts it would seem not to offer enough power based on my current experiences. The Cresendos certainly take the power and in my room seems to want more than 60 watts. I fully understand watts are not watts and one 60 watt amp can drive my speaker better than other 60 watt amp etc...
The Cary Rocket 88r offers 30 watts Triode and 60 in Ultralinear mode. The Cresendos need the 60 Ultra mode watts for sure in my room.
Curious as to why you use the Zero's with the Atma amps? My experience with the Zero's was not good finding they really messed with the sound.
I have tried several amps and thus far the Lyngdorf is the best. It puts out some 100 watts and sometimes I sense the Cresendos would be very happy with more quality watts. I have two tube amps I have used that both sound great, but in the end sound a little strained at higher volumes and in the bass.
The Cary Rocket88r puts out 60 watts and with the mods are high quality watts. Same with a set of very good Legend Triode amps from Von Gaylord. My room is very large 36x22 with 12 foot ceilings.
I am curious if folks have tried powerful Class D amps with the Cresendo? Merrill is a good example I think? In what areas did the Merrills shine compared the the M60's?
LM 508 IA drives the Crescendo's beautifully and 48 SET Watts is more than enough for the music I listen to: Classical Guitar, Cello, Violin and various string instruments.
It's so involving that it keeps me up until almost midnight every night...
Just a thought, Viva Auroras seldom appear on the used market (I can understand why). A pair of these would make the Cresendo sing to the heavenly angels above in my opinion.
Wig uses the Line Magnetic 508ia an 805 SET 48 watts and says they're the best amplifier he has heard on the Cresendo. Quality! Charles
sksos1, I can believe that the 60 watt Atmasphere mono blocks overall outperform the more powerful Merrill with the exception of playing very loud rock music. As you note, some high power amplifiers can lack liveliness. I’ve heard this result more than a few times at shows and demonstratons. Despite the impressive power available, there can be "at times" a flat and uninvolving sound. Increasing the volume doesn’t eradicate the issue.
I’ve heard these speakers on 4 occasions driven by the 50 watt Triode Corp TRX 845 PSET in generous sized rooms and the presentation was truly superb! My 8 watt SET wouldn’t be my first choice with the Crescendos, but 50 to 60 "high quality " watts should be quite a fine match. Emphasis on quality watts. Sorry to hear about your experience with AZ selling direct and undercutting you. Too bad. Charles
grannyring, the M60 did a very nice job for all but Rock n Roll 98 dB blasting music. I listen to 90% jazz and had no problem. Yes the Veritas drives them without breaking a sweat but can lack some of the liveleness of the M60's.
I use several with good results. An Atmasphere M60 or Novacron (both with Zero auto-transformers) or a Merrill Audio Veritas. The Merrill gives you all the headroom you would ever need.
I am selling the Crescendo's now because I've lost 3 sales direct to AZ, not a good thing for a company to undersell a dealer so will sell them at 55% off list but must be picked-up. Sorry if this is the wrong place to announce.
I would love to hear what we Cresendo owners use for amps? I use two amps. A high,y modified Cary Rocket 88r tube amp and a Lyngdorf 2170. I think they like power more than some think? What are you using?
12-16-13: Sksos1 Mcondon I'm located in NH just 45 minutes out of Boston and have them playing 24/7 (still breaking in) in a dedicated room about 16" x 26" but on the short wall and 8 feet out from the front wall. Send me a note and come by for a listen. Steve SOS
Steve, it was great meeting you. The SMC VRE 1 with AtmaSphere M60 driving the Crescendo is a fabulous combination. Anyone in the area should definitely drop in for a listen.
Charles1dad you are so right. Just because something costs more doesn't make it better. I myself have learned the hard way, a Kondo SOUGA amp ($50K) was easily beaten by an Atmasphere S30 (with the right speaker...not the Crescendos) and my Kondo M1000 MKII (95K) was beaten by the SMc VRE-1b pre. Expensive is not always better!
It's funny how perception can vary so greatly amongst different people. I'm familiar with the popular Wilson Sasha and Magico S5, both are very highly regarded. Yet in my opinion neither is nearly as natural, balanced and musically involving as the Crescendo. Subjective? Obviously so, but this speaker seems quite underrated for what it offers. Charles,
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