Adding Volume control to an older preamp

These cheap remote  volume pots just Rob detail Khozmo now makes thin resistor,relay remotes for around $350  night and day better , the cheap $25 alps pots  Just Rob detail are nothing more then a plastic wiper with a conductive 

spray on it.

A standard 10K input impedance for the active preamps seems an odd choice;

I would agree.  Their HP/Preamp series has 50k ohm input but even the higher-end preamp like Kara/Freya stick with 10k.  Why, don’t know, ask bud dry!

My understanding of "true" passives is that input and output impedances are generally the same by definition

A passive device simply means it has no active gain elements such as transistor, op-amp or tube and operates without an external power supply for amplification. This implies nothing about input and output impedances being equal.  You could look at the "SYS" model, i.e., its input and output impedances are 10k and 5k (max) ohm, respectively.

Lastly, the Saga’s gain (ratio) is 1/2 for SE/Balance in Low-Gain active; and 4/8 in High-Gain active. (Amplification = 20 log(gain) is 0 dB when gain = 1)  It is found the Low-Gain active sounds the best, better than the passive mode with slightly more dynamic/openness without hint of constriction.  In addition, Low-gain tends to have lower THD+N than High-gain, as frequently demonstrated in the measurements.

Saga2’s output imp. being 4.7kohm does not mean its output imp. is also 4.7kohm.  I believe all Schiit preamps (not headphone amp/preamp) have a standard 10kohm input imp.

My undestanding of "true" passives is that input and output impedances are generally the same by definition - because there’s literally nothing to transform (ala TVC’s) or buffer between the 2 sides. I think Schiit has made "0 gain" preamp options in the past that still use a buffered output - but the Saga’s passive mode doesn’t appear to do this.

Either way it would probably work fine in op’s case, and he could always switch to active mode in a jam. 

A standard 10K input impedance for the active preamps seems an odd choice; I would expect some sources could have output impedances > 1K? 50K - 100K input is a safer bet. Again though, it probably hardly matterns when most modern digital sources have stout output stages.

Not a good idea to use a longer interconnect and Ethernet cable just for the convenience of volume adjustment. I’d rather take the opportunity to get some exercise — or consider the following:

1. If you keep the Wiim for streaming: It has a ReplayGain setting that lets you normalize volume across albums or tracks. I recall Qobuz only supports track-level normalization, but it still reduces the need for constant volume adjustments. In the Wiim, ReplayGain is applied as metadata and processed with 32-bit precision before DAC conversion, so there’s no audible harm to fidelity.

2. If you still decide to move the gear closer: Consider an optical-Ethernet setup, which many end users have found effective.

Thank you all for the input!

Im going to go with moving the preamp near my listening chair and purchasing the longer interconnects. If I don’t like it I will purchase the Saga.

I started moving things has night and realized the my Ethernet cable will no longer reach the streamer. The devil is in the details.

passive mode is "max 4.7K"). With 4.7K ohms you ideally want a source output impedance below 470 ohm

Saga2's output imp. being 4.7kohm does not mean its output imp. is also 4.7kohm.  I believe all Schiit preamps (not headphone amp/preamp) have a standard 10kohm input imp.

I'd move the preamp next to your listening position. Good quality interconnects will likely have a far smaller impact that putting another device into the loop.

The Chase appears to employ a digital IC chip for its core volume control. That can be fine, and indeed some very high-end preamps employ this method (e.g. ARC Reference) - but for someone concerned with length of ICs, the choice of volume control device should be a more significant concern IMO. The Schiit actually advertises a very pure ladder & relay based approach (2 resistors and a few relays inserted in the signal chain, versus a chip). Khozmo offers the same kind of ladder controls, along with some slightly more economical shunt & series options - but with higher quality "boutique grade" resistors and mechanical / motor control (external to signal path) instead of the relays. 

Really hard to fault the Schiit for what it offers at that price. I think the Khozmo looks like a great deal too, at a higher quality tier.

In the past couple years I’ve started easing a lot of my "requirements" for cables. I don’t obsess about it anymore, and developed aversion to the expensive options - except I still really like solid silver on speaker cable runs. But interconnects and PCs - I’ve become happy witha  LOT less. Volume controls however, can still absolutely make or break a component / system for me. Alps Blue pot is where I draw a hard line - ugh, no. Digital ICs can be OK at times. But ideally I prefer a really good pot or a discrete resistor control. 

there is not much that can go wrong if you buy used with a remote and seller says it works. I added a toggle on/off switch to the face panel of this one so I can reset it to defaults, otherwise you need to add a line switch or unplug it. It retains all your settings and adjustments.

One arrived with the transformer loose from it’s separate board, someone must have dropped it. I got a full refund

the Chase is line in/line out, you just plug your preamp into it, plug it to your amp(s).

Use it’s 4 line inputs, or only 1. Still use the preamp to select your sources, use it’s MM phono .... in my case I keep the beloved McIntosh Mode Switch

I never had an issue over many years in a variety of systems.

It has 2 identical line out, labeled front and rear, with remote fader. That was from early quad with no processing, just 4 speakers

The 10k ohm input imp. is standard on all Schiit preamps.  For headphone amp and preamps, however, the input imp. is designed as 50k ohm.  If you don’t believe me, you could check with Schiit.

Technically speaking, I like the preamp section in the headphone amp/preamp like Asgard but it does not come with remote.

Thank you for the reply’s!

Ianx0003-Where did you find the 10k ohm input spec for the Saga2? I cannot find any input impedance data for the Saga2.

kennyc- Thanks for the suggestion. There was a recent thread on this topic where the Placette was also recommended. From my searching it appears that the company is out of business and could not locate and used units.

mulveling- Thanks for your input. I am curious if the longer interconnects or the longer speaker wires is a difference I can hear. Love this crazy hobby.

paradisecom- Do you believe the Saga2 function with is transparent in you system?  

elliotbnewcombjr- Thanks for the recommendation. I will research the unit to see what the specs are. I am concerned about input/output impedance matching issues

I highly recommend the Chase RLC-1 Remote Line Controller, there are several used or new ones listed now

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=chase+rlc-1

You can use it a variety of ways, direct; via a tape loop; via a processor loop; just for your pream, or it has 4 selectable line in if you want to bypass your preamp for any line level source.

for remote power; remote volume, and wonderfully for remote balance, it has remote treble and bass which I never use, and, it includes automatic and progressive bass boost only for very low volume listening.

Over many years, in a variety of setups, neither I nor my friends can detect if it is in line or not, it silently does it’s job. 105 db s/n ratio.

I retain all the features of my Vintage McIntosh mx110z tube tuner/preamp in my main system, and get remote volume of a Vintage Receiver in my garage/shop system. in my office, I use it only for remote system power.

Note: it must have the remote control, there are no controls on the unit itself.

The Schiit Saga is an easy and affordable solution.  I run one for the same reason and it's great as a volume control.  

I’ve been using longer (~16 feet) XLR ICs from preamp to power amp in my 2nd system, with no discernible penalty. It’s perfectly fine to go that way. The passive route would probably work OK too, but I haven’t tried that yet.

I was once looking at Kozhmo (Poland) passives - it’s a nice combination of high quality resistor-based attenuation, fine steps, remote control, and reasonable price. You can also spec dual-mono attenuators for L/R balance control (which was my interest). Not as cheap as the Saga, but still not bad as far as this hobby goes, and given the quality of resistors it should be "effectively transparent" to sound quality. The problem with passives of course is choosing an impedance that can perfectly straddle between the upstream and downstream without upsetting either. Usually the correct choice for this is around 5K to 10K ohms, but there’s a lot less margin for error than with active preamps. The Saga at least gives you the option for active if you get into trouble (active output is spec’d at 75 ohms; passive mode is "max 4.7K"). With 4.7K ohms you ideally want a source output impedance below 470 ohms and amp impedance greater than 47K ohms. 

And wow, they really pack a lot in that Saga for $279! Have to respect that.

Placette Audio Remote Volume Control

The Pass Labs 150.8 has plenty of input impedance—50 kΩ for single-ended and 100 kΩ for balanced—so the Saga 2’s tiny 75 Ω output impedance is no problem at all. Even with the Pontus II feeding the Saga 2, you’re still looking at 625 Ω output into a 10 kΩ input, which is fine too. Saga 2 only takes single-ended inputs anyway, you’re all set.