All Benchmark System Question

@mapman This reviewer is on the money for me. I bought the following based on his reviews and I got exactly what I expected.

- Benchmark HPA4 (was going to get the LA4)
- Gustard X26 Pro
- Matrix Mini-3 Pro  (my buddy has this now)
- Topping A90 headphone amp  (my buddy has this now)

I expect the Topping pre90 to also work for me.

@regg I labeled my cables and since they are XLR's it is really easy to hook up. The Gustard X26 Pro, CODA 07x, HPA4, AHB2, DAC3B are great paired up in any combo. I will be adding the CODA#8 to this soup. I have no desire to buy anything in the uber expensive range. 

Note that the CODA 07x does not have a power swatch, it is always on. So I make sure I change the active preamp input to a source that is turned off when I am removing the XLR from the AHB2.

BMS equipment is transparent.

If you are hearing hardness or ’lack of warmth’ it is on the original recording. I’ve proven this with CD/SACD "masters" of performances that were recorded in different ways with different mics, etc.

if you must, I’d add the Troubadour you are thinking of to supplement the system you are already have. If it is available you might try changing the filter characteristics of the BMS DAC.

I’d run BMS cables on all your equipment. If I'm late to the fair I apologize.

@ivanj ,
I agree with you completely, the Benchmark equipment only shows what’s on the recording and that is amazing most of the time. I guess the question I have been pondering is what is the best way to make the Benchmark system more forgiving in those cases where the recording is not so great, or if I just want a different flavor part of the time. You cannot change filter settings on the Benchmark DAC. I have a Gustard x26 pro DAC on order, @yyzsantabarbara  has had much success with that DAC in his Benchmark System. My guess is that the Troubador is warmer still and if the Gustard is not to my liking I will try that. People also uniformly rave about the Halo KTE, which is also on the radar.

I had the all Benchmark system but decided to sell the preamp, even though it was the best one I had ever used. I find that no preamp is better - more transparent. It is as if you are in the room with the performers. Not warmer, just more real. More emotion! I use the EVS Ultimate attenuator: http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/custom_modsultimate_attenuators.html
to control volume. At the moment I am all digital so I don't have to switch cables. Streamer and cd transport just plug into the Benchmark DAC 3b. I have tried two other interconnect brands but always returned to the Benchmark cables. This surprised me; when I substituted well-reviewed much more expensive interconnects, things took a turn for the worse. Details went missing and the immediacy of the performance disappeared. Incidentally I use the Amphion 7LS speakers with Isoacoustics Gaia 2 feet. 

@gagliano01 I recently had a long conversation with Ric Shultz about his modded Putifi amps. I wish I had known about the EVS Ultimate attenuator. I always wanted to try one. It is the same price as the Topping per90 that I just bought. Though I expect that preamp to be perfect for my needs.

I have the  opposite observations with the HPA4 in-between the DAC3B and AHB2. I thought everything was better. Volume control at low levels was much better with the HPA4.

This next observation confuses me. With the all BM stack I feel the single AHB2 is not enough juice for the Thiel CS3.7 (it is pretty good). However, with the CODA 07x I feel the single AHB2 is still lacking a bit of power but the sound itself seems more powerful. Now this is a hard rocking album so the more powerful sounding CODA seems to sound better with the AHB2.

I wrote this about the HPA4 not sounding as powerful as the CODA 07x and not making sense. I figured out how this happened the next day. I forgot to post that here.

When I brought up the HPA4 from downstairs I wired up the MONO output to the RIGHT speaker. I was doing this without looking and forgot that the RIGHT channel is the middle connection on the HPA4. So that explains the quote above. I later disconnected everything, cleaned the gear and set it up with a nice layout and less jumbled wiring.

The next observation is also not fully correct. The part about the soundstage being smaller was an artifact of the MONO connection. The greater detail and harder on top than the CODA still applies. I compared this again.

On the all BM stack there is a bit more detail, such as on the first song. There is also a tiny bit of hardness to the sound that was not there on the CODA 07x.The soundstage also seems a little smaller than with the CODA.

The preamp output connection (for both preamps) I use now will not get changed in the future. Only the XLR connection at the amp end.

As a Coda 07X owner, I tell you, it’s hard to beat. For the money required, very hard indeed. Buy the Coda. You may find yourself drifting away from the Benchmark. 

@wturkey The CODA 07x is amazing and make my RAAL SR1a sound like million dollar speakers (no room to deal with). I have a ton of experience with the RAAL and the CODA 07x is magic on them. However, whenever, I hear something really great on the CODA conected to my floor standers I tell myself to remember to listen to that on the HPA4. I find the HPA4 my favorite piece of gear. I would not say the HPA4 is better than the 07x but on my floor standers I tend to prefer the HPA4 sound (or lack thereof). Just a matter of preference.

If my speakers were not such a current pig I would not be getting the CODA #8.

I can also tell everyone that CODA and Benchmark sound incredible together.

What is a warm sound and why would you ever want it?

From what I've been able to determine it seems pure sound is often though of as being too clinal so it's important to add some warmth, which seems to suggests a warm sound is modified or contaminated.

If certain frequencies are considered too harsh then it likely to be an issue with the equipment and a so called warm sound is never going to be the answer.

As a side note: Audyssey can set incorrect speaker distances in an attempt to fix room issues, but in doing so inadvertently creates a harsh sound. Even a tape measure can be inaccurate, so a laser measurement is worthwhile investment.

@pedroeb, I don’t think of music as sounding “warm” or “harsh”, just different. I used to have a CJ amp with a Sumo Athena pre and when I switched to Benchmark it was night and Day. The Benchmark system retrieves more detail and the CJ system was more fluid I guess. I don’t ever want to change out my Benchmark System/I love it. Only wondering if sometimes I want a different flavor, what’s the best way to do it without changing the whole system, but rather swapping in a different DAC or preamp?

regg, you have two choices. Changing loudspeakers or adding digital EQ to your system. The DEQX hp-5 would be perfect with your Benchmark equipment. You would not need the DAC anymore as there are excellent DACs in the DEQX. You also gain digital bass management should you ever want to do subwoofers. With digital EQ you get room control then you can EQ the sound to get whatever you like. Boosting 150 to 300 Hz just a dB or two will add that warmth. Changing DACs will do nothing. Your sound is all about the speakers and the room. The AHB2 is one of my favorite amps. Huge value.

I can’t help but think that there’s a market for more powerful, beefier Benchmark “AHB3’s(?)” that can handle more power demanding, lower impedance loads.

DEQX HP-5? Never heard of it. Anybody else use it? @mijostyn do you really feel switching out DACs won’t make any difference? Seems like others have spent a lot of time and money switching out DAC’s to get a more “analogue” sound seemingly with success. Again, I think my all Benchmark system is killer, especially with the somewhat warm P3SER’s, but sometimes I would like to hear a different flavor.

@yyzsantabarbara , I just saw some great reviews of the KEF KC62 subwoofer which does as you stated have an apartment switch and it’s tiny-great for my apartment! Extremely interesting, thanks to you and @mapman for the suggestion. Another thing on my list although I have heard it’s hard to get the crossover right. Have to figure out how to hook it up to the AHB2 but I think I am going to pull the trigger.

@regg In 2 weeks I am going to setup a ROON system for someone. He has used DEQX gear for 15 years (maybe 5 models). I am going to show him the ROON setup with DSP run via CONVOLUTION filters for my RAAL SR1a. This is what I run for both my floorstanders and my RAAL (my office is small with big speakers). These are 2 different DSP implementations done by Accurate Sound out of Canada.

I told him that the Convolution filter will likely be much better than his DEQX gear. I think the Convolution filters will be better because it uses a computer and you are not limited by processing power on a computer verses a dedicated piece of audio gear. Need more power? Just buy a more powerful computer and use the same or more demanding Convolution filter.

Regarding the crossover for the AHB2 + sub. Did you read the link I posted earlier describing how to setup a sub with the AHB2?

I just played on of my favorites disks, Earth Wind and Fire - Greatest Hits on the CODA 07x + Gustard X26 Pro and AHB2 + Thiel CS3.7. I was so mesmerized by the music I stopped my work and just listened to the whole album. I then played the album again. This time I put in the HPA4 and used the same XLR from the Gustard to make an apples to apples comparison. The HPA4 is a little clearer more detailed and beautiful but that CODA 07x and Gustard combo was a bit warmer and was magic.

BTW - I use fibre for my streaming so the computer noise is not a factor. I am however limited to only having DSP done for my DAC, not SACD or tuner which are analog outputs.

@unsound There is a market for an AHB3 but BM seems to think the amp is perfect as is and if you need more power then run it in mono. Though in mono it is not rate at continuous power in 2 Ohm. The stereo version is rated at 2 Ohm continuous power (something in the 250 watt range).

@yyzsantabarbara , Their loss.

Someone wanted my take on the Topping pre90 vs the HPA4. I only got the Topping pre90 today and it has only about 6 hours on it.

I must say I am impressed by this little preamp. It sounds a lot like the HPA4. That is they are both ultra quiet and I am not sure what I loose sonics wise with the pre90 over the HPA4. I do lose an RCA input and the great volume control of the HPA4. Though the Toppings volume was much better than the Topping A90 headphone amp I had at one time (and gave away).

I love the fact that the output on the pre90 has a switch to select RCA or XLR. In my situation, with my CODA 07x preamp being part of the equation and that unit not having a power switch (always on), it was too dangerous for me to setup the RCA and XLR outputs on the HPA4 (just used XLR). I do not think the HPA4 has such an output switch and if it did it is too complicated to keep track. The pre90 makes this easy with the GUI and buttons.

I did some listening to my Sony SCD-1 SACD/CD (modified) player into the Topping pre90 by XLR and then RCA into my D-Sonic M3a 800s and then into my RAAL SR1a. I am thinking this pretty amazing and something I was too afraid to do with the HPA4. The D-Sonic also has a switch to select RCA or XLR input.

The Sony SCD-1 does not have DSP done like my digital streaming. It sounds great since the room is not part of the listening experience with the RAAL SR1a headphones. I however, do use a Convolution file on my RAAL SR1a + DAC streaming and it is better, but this vintage 20 year Sony SACD/CD is one of the best ever built and still sounds killer. I will be listening a ton more to the Sony if I keep the Topping pre90.

I still need this unit to burn in more and test it with my streamers into my Thiel CS3.7 floor standers. I have 15 foot XLR cable from the preamp to the Benchmark AHB2 mono amps. It sounds very good so far but I will do some more detailed comparisons after more hours on the Topping.

Here are some reasons for me to keep the Topping pre90:
- I sold my Meze Empy headphones last week because with the way my RAAL SR1a are now setup with the Convolution from my streamers and also the analog sound today with the Sony SCD-1 the Empy was toast. I bought the HPA4 over the LA4 because of the Empy needing a headphone connection.
- the benefit of the RCA/XLR output switch on the Topping pre90.
- most importantly the pre90 sounding so much like the HPA4 so far. I am starting to love my CODA 07x as my main preamp and the HPA4 or Topping as second fiddle.

I am now playing the Benchmark DAC3B with a Convolution filter designed for the RAAL SR1a into the Topping pre90 by RCA. The output is Topping pre90 RCA to the D-Sonic amp. It sounds great, though not as great as the CODA 07x in this scenario. This time I have to give the main credit to the Convolution filter for making the Topping and DAC3B sound excellent on the RAAL SR1a.

BTW - it is almost 3AM and I am still listening to the pre90 without any complaints about the sonics. A great sign. I am tending to think I will be selling the $3000 HPA4 and go with the $600 Topping pre90.

Hi regg,

Old timer who went completely digital in 1990's with zero regret.  In my experience, a tube somewhere in the chain is essential.  The resolution of your choices begs for a great tube buffer!  Study up.  More Peace, Pin

If anyone is interested. I compared the Benchmark HPA4 vs the Topping pre90. I could not tell a difference. They sounded the same. I sold the HPA4 for almost the same price I bought it for and now use the Topping pre90 ($599).

In fact my CODA 07x has not had any play with my floor standers for almost 2 weeks since I have be using the Topping. I am really armored with the Topping. I do use the CODA 07x for my RAAL SR1a.

The Topping pre90 is like the HPA4. It gets out of the way and let’s the other components dictate the sound. I loved this unit so much that I also bought the Topping ext90 ($250) which adds 3 more XLR’s and 1 more RCA. I cannot believe this level of quality for the price.

My CODA #8 amp should be shipped soon. I am certain it will sound great with both the Topping pre90 and CODA 07x. I currently use the Benchmark AHB2 monos. They sound incredible with both preamps. If I was smarter I would not have bought the CODA #8.

BTW - the Topping pre90 does not have the amazing headphone amp as the HPA4. However, now that I only listen to the RAAL SR1a headphones the HPA4 headphone amp was never used.

@yyzsantabarbara I appreciate the you updating this thread with your latest comparison. This whole thread has really got me thinking about improving my system. I actually purchased the X26pro (got a week left on trail) and find most of it qualities vs the Dac3L favorable. I hooked both directly to amps via xlr's and feel the X26 sounds more pleasing in macro sense. But the flexibility the filters provide is fantastic at maximizing the material I'm listening to. Although I must say the Dac 3L is slightly darker to my ears which translates into perceived deeper sound stage and maybe slightly better pinpoint imaging. The Dac 3l also has analog inputs and HT Bypass. So they both have advantages but SQ is paramount so I think the Dac3L is going.

Do you know anyone who wants a Dac3L in great condition? :)
Once I sell that I might pick up the topping if you think that might give the x26 a sonic advantage direct to Mono's. I'm not clear on your thought on the x26 direct to amp verses to Pre. The reviewer you referenced didn't seem to think it would, but your motor familiar with my amps.

@regg did you receive you X26pro? what did you think?

@mrpsync I was using the Topping pre90 for 2 to 3 weeks straight on my floor standers which were driven by the AHB2 monos. It sounded awesome. I do not miss the HPA4 since the Topping pre90 sounds like it. I may have mentioned it on this thread that the HPA4 has way more useful features than the Topping pre90. The pre90 is really bare bones but that is all I need.

Today I have the CODA 07x back in the mix and it is also amazing. Every time I switch preamps I tend to like the new one more. Which is a good reason to keep both.

My CODA #8 is finally built and is being burnt in at CODA this weekend. It will ship on Monday. I had SpeakON speaker connections added to the #8 to play with my Audience FrontRow cable which is used by the AHB2 SpeakON terminal. The SpeakON’s added some delay to my amp delivery.

I use my DAC3B regularly because I find it a bit more detailed than the Gustard. I definitely tested this out a few days ago with my RAAL SR1a. I love both DACs and have come to appreciate the DAC3B even more now.

I always prefer a preamp for my DACs. I have not spent mega bucks on DACs so I do not know if other DACs have better preamp capabilities, but the DACs I have listened to have benefited with a preamp.

One of the top 10 DACs these guys ever measured.
Gustard X26Pro Review (Balanced High-end DAC) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

@mrpsync:
I did receive the x26pro and I agree with yysantabarbara, it is an amazing DAC. It is a touch warmer than the DAC3b but I haven’t decided whether to keep it yet-I am very addicted to the DAC3b, which I think is slightly more detailed. To be honest though, I am not one of those people who hear dramatic differences in DACs-though I have never tried one of the Halo or Denafrips DACs. In my system with Harbeth P3’s I think I would probably hear the most difference with a Sub. Since I don’t have measuring equipment though, I don’t know if I could set a sub up properly. I would highly recommend trying the x26 pro-in your system it may sound great and if you buy it on a trial you can return it.

@yyzsantabarbara Again thanks for your input. I think maybe  the topping pre90se for Xmas gift to myself may be in my future regardless of which dac I keep :)

 I confess I'm still struggling with which Dac to keep though. Like your impression when switching preamps (liking the latest one more every time you switch).
Also, may I ask where you sell your equipment? I got a quote from one of the used market retailers for $1200. But think I can do better.....maybe? There is something to be said about hassle/ risk free transactions.

@regg thanks for replying. I totally understand your addiction. When the Dac3 is at it's best with the AHB2,  it just seams to provide more than just a terrific musical presentation. It kind of lets you peak behind the curtains of the recordings themselves....warts and all. 

With that said, I think the Gustard gives a "prettier" presentation. Particularly in some harsher/ edgy / brighter recording when using the NOS filter or Composite.

Thanks

@mrpsync, I agree with you completely, The Gustard is “prettier” and it is great with the filters. On a good recording though, the Dac3b is astonishing in its presentation. Probably also has a lot to do with the synergies with the AHB2 and HPA4. So many choices!

@mrpsync The Topping pre90 sounds good with the DAC3B and the Gustard X26 Pro. If you can swing it keep both. They sound different. In my case, with the RAAL SR1a headphones the Gustard X26 Pro was a must. However, that gap has closed recently with a Convolution filter for the SR1a. I totally agree with the comments you 2 guys above have made about the DAC3 and the Gustard X26 Pro. I hear it the same way.

I sold the DAC3B 2x before and regretted it both times (I moved, had kid, etc...). I am never selling the DAC3B. Not sure how long the Gustard X26 Pro will last (it runs warm), but I will enjoy until then.

I am not sure about what you are referring to with the $1200. If it is the Gustard buy it from the Chinese retailer
GUSTARD X26 PRO Full Decoding ES9038Pro*2 Chip DSD512 Bluetooth 5.0 X (shenzhenaudio.com)

If anything goes wrong they will replace it. 

@yyzsantabarbara I wish I could keep both but $3400 invested in Dacs is a little too steep for my blood.

The $1200 I referred to what I was offered for my used Benchmark Dac3L, which I paid $1999 w/remote 2yrs ago (I have all the original boxes and extras). I Mentioned that because in your previous post you mentioned getting a very good price for your HPA4. Since I don't think $1200 is a great deal for the DAC3L I was hoping you would shed some light on what you think it could fetch; and how you sold your equipment in the past...ie through audiomart, audiogon, or word of mouth, etc.

Sorry for all the questions/ guidance requests, but I'm new at this.

Thanks

Guys, I have come to the conclusion that i do get “tired” periodically with whatever I am hearing and want something different. For years I used a Conrad Johnson amp and preamp and I remember hearing it for the first time after living with a Tandberg amp and PS Audio pre and I thought it was a revelation-tubes is the way to go I thought. Then a dear friend convinced me to try all Benchmark and when I first heard it I thought it was a revelation. Now, after reading @yyzsantabarbara’s comments I want a Coda 07x! I do believe I will never sell any of my Benchmark though. @mrpsync, whichever DAC you pick between the two will be a winner. And a year from now there will be a new flavor we all want and we will go through it all again!

The CODA 07x is pretty amazing. It is at the level of the Luxman c900u preamp at $15K.  I think I would take the CODA over the c900u. I am comparing these 2 because they are sort of similar sonically. A little warm for the CODA a bit warmer still for the Luxman.

As I write this I am playing some music via my Sony SCD-1 SACD player into my Topping pre90 and then to a D-Sonic Class D amp which then goes to my RAAL SR1a headphones. This is the first time in a long time I have heard the RAAL SR1a naked (no DSP). It sounds great with the 20 year old disk player. The Topping really gets out of the way and lets me hear the SACD player. The Sony SCD-1 does not sound as nice with the CODA 07x preamp, both are warmish components.

The $1500 D-Sonic amp has a switch to select between RCA and XLR inputs. So I have the CODA and Topping preamps hooked up to it at the same time. The speaker outputs from the D-Sonic go into my RAAL SR1a headphones. I recently got an RCA cable to make this Topping to D-Sonic connection possible. So another listening option.

I do not plan on buying more gear after I get some speakers for my living room. I am pretty sure I will stick to what I have now built. This system setup was a long time in the making for me (about 10 years of saving).

A new update on my finalized office system. I now have the CODA #8 to pair with the CODA 07x or Topping pre90. The CODA #8 is incredible with the Thiel CS3.7. Better than the Benchmark AHB2, though I like the sonic signature of the AHB2 a little more. The AHB2 does not have the required power at 2 Ohm. I can see it makes a massive difference. I had to lower a Convolution filter I use in my small office to be ruler flat as opposed to the slight bass bump I was using with the AHB2 monos. These DSP files were professionally created for me and are of incredible quality.

The Benchmark stack is also super quiet while the CODA stack has a tiny bit of hiss with ear against tweeter (like most gear). This is not a deal breaker since the CODA pair sounds so good with the Thiel CS3.7.

I moved my AHB2’s to be the mono amps to my RAAL SR1a. It sounds incredible via the CODA 07x preamp and another RAAL SR1a Convolution file. It is not really overkill because these headphones can use the power.

Now everything is not unicorns and rainbows. My Topping pre90 and the CODA #8 sounds like crap, very disappointing on that. The Topping pre90 and AHB2 sounded great but I do not use that combo anymore to the Thiel CS 3.7. I need to figure out what to do there. I will likely have an orphaned KEF LS50 in the future so that is an option for the Topping pre90.

I was testing the Topping pre90 today with RCA sources, but XLR output to the CODA #8. Maybe that makes a difference because I compared the all CODA setup using all XLR’s.

I wonder how the Benchmark HPA4/LA4 + CODA #8 would have sounded (won’t know now). The AHB2 and CODA 07x are amazing together.

BTW - I only have the Benchmark DAC3B in the office. I had to move the Gustard X26 Pro downstairs to do preamp/DAC duties for a month or so while I get some cosmetic repairs done on an integrated amp. The DAC3B is great with the CODA stack.

I spoke with my CODA dealer who sells CODA gear to a lot of recording studios in Los Angeles. He told me a few of his professional clients use the Benchmark preamp (LA4/HPA4) with the CODA #8. He thought the Topping pre90 sounding dull or lifeless with the CODA was likely an impedance mismatch.

I sold the HPA4 to some guy in France a few weeks ago but I only lost $200 so not the end of the world to buy the LA4 to replace it. Bye, bye Topping pre90 at least with the CODA #8.

I also learned that I could reduce the tiny bit of hiss on the CODA 07x preamp by lowering the individual source gain on the CODA 07x. I had raised it in the past to match the HPA4 sound level when I was comparing gear via ROON.