Spirit,
It`s very possible your current amplifier may be hard to beat(based on your taste,you`ve enjoyed them for some time now).The capacitor change may just be the missing factor to bring it all together.Time will tell.Get the best capacitor you can afford,it`s worth it in a system of this caliber.
Regards, |
Well Charles, I've just checked the main UK source of Dueland Cast PIO Copper caps, and depending on spec, they range in price from $300 to $3750. Gulp! I presume I need these for the preamp only? How many am I likely to need, just 2 with labour charge to install would cover the cost of a brand new Atma S30! Anyhow, I thought one of the big positives re Bob Hovland was that his Hov MusiCaps were great performers and sought after by other component designers.
Isn't this all a bit of a punt? I mean there's no way to a-b an upgraded amp/spkrs with caps installed against the unadulterated originals. This is almost as risky as a particular cartridge dealer in the UK refusing home trial, expecting me to buy without being totally secure in hearing it in my system.
Lack of comparison leaves me a little anxious re the outcome. I have to emphasise the Hovs only demonstrate a hint of glassiness on some material, and I'm still convinced this is eminently tolerable with the liquid neutrality I hear most of the time. Additionally, the 4s are changing for the better literally day to day, bringing much needed warmth to offset occas coolness. Still convinced careful cable/power cord choice (Zu Event), vibration control (settling on Symposium Isis and prob Minus K on wall shelf for tt) and balanced power overkill (Westwick Audio 8kVA transformer) will maximise neutrality with just the right amount of warmth to hopefully fully balance the final sound. But I'm not going to totally dismiss possible SET/OTL avenues. |
Spirit,
You make some very good points,there`re different pathways to upgrading a system. The cost of the Duelund CAST is based on the capacitor size/value in uf. Mine are 5.6uF(speaker) and cost me 850 USD.The 1 pair I placed in my DAC(output capacitors, 1uF) cost 440 USD. The improvement is 'very' substantial. Spirit, depending on the size of your speaker caps(what size are they?),the cost may be equal or even less than many high end cables(power or interconnect).Just something to think about as tweeter cap quality is a big contributor to the overall sound. |
Charles, I had a little bit of a mindstorm, and thought you were suggesting I replace the caps in my Hov pre! That would have cost me a tidy sum, in effect the cost of totally new amplification!
I'll check with Sean on the cap value on the tweeters in the 4s and give this some serious consideration. Luckily here this is a rel. simple install job, no soldering needed, just temp. dismantling of tweeter. |
Spirit, If I were you I would not do any mods to anything without having first run the system that you set up.
Simon did mention to me something about that cap mod, but it was in the context of dealing with cables and poor digital front ends. IOW when there is vinyl there is no hint of a problem.
Digital has always sounded brighter to me so this is no surprise at all. I have to say I am not used to anyone describing our amps as bright or lean. Just Google 'Atma-Sphere' and you will see what I mean. The Druids we had here did not have even a hint of it. |
Unless an owner asked for something different, Def4s have a Mundorf cap on the Radian super tweeter. I know Zu continually evaluates new capacitors for in-line upgrades and as options for customers before or after delivery. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Mundorf "holds back" the Radian in Def4 and Druid5, but you can certainly alter the perceptual output contour of the very top end by changing the tweeter network cap to voice your system. I will have more to say on this in January, as I will be doing a few cap comparisons on my Def4s and Druid5s in a few weeks.
I agree that Atmasphere OTL amps are "clean & lean" on Definitions; less so on Druid, which tends to help any amp deliver more tonal body in the midrange. And for some reason, Superfly conveys Atmasphere sound more like Def than does Druid. I get more natural presentation from specifically Audion SET than from any push-pull tube amps, OTL or otherwise, but I also have to say that the amplifiers under discussion by Spirit lately in this thread are all in the family of highly credible amplification for Zu, and that includes his Hovland. Yeah, sure you're getting some silicon sound from the Hovland power amp but compared to what normal music aficionados are dealing with, we here are talking about spending silly money to correct a relatively narrow deficiency. Not that I wouldn't spend it or haven't! Once the right power amp is lashed to a Zu speaker it becomes very straightforward to sort sources, cables and even to dial in setup.
Phil |
Spirit,
I would agree that first get comfortable with your new speakers and their fit into your system. Once this is done and you have a good sense of your sound ,then further changes 'if needed' can be chosen.
Speaker capacitor changes can be a relatively simple step that can yield marked improvement quite often.You have plenty of time,so no rush.
Regards, |
I'm not going to rush into a cap change at this point, although it's on my radar. The sound of the 4s is changing daily, thankfully for the better, as I continue to make small adjustments. Eg I've just located my amps onto Symposium Isis supports, and having placed Precision Couplers under the amps a whole layer of upper midbass colouration has cleared and a more transparent window to the music has resulted.
I always scoffed at audiophiles talking this way, but, ahem, I'm now guilty of applying hyperbole to what I perceive to be big changes in sound with ongoing changes.
What I'm concluding from this is that the 4s really are a remarkable transducer, presenting a really direct line to the music, and capable of revealing the quality of all elements in the chain between it and the source played.
I want to try a few changes, but based on my conclusions so far I'm certain a cap change will be noticeable, as would amp change from SS to SET 845/OTL.
Phil, please keep us all informed on your cap change findings. Please give serious consideration to trying the Dueland Cast Cu, apparently the best, but also the most expensive. The guy on the 6Moons site with DruidVs certainly concluded it was an advantage to swap out the stock Mundorfs. |
I've had some extensive conversations with Sean regarding caps for the Druid mk5 upgrade. Clarity Cap MR is his favourite value for money cap with the Radian, very close to Duelund in the mk5 configuration. I had Mundorf SIO caps in my network already........... He said change them. |
Hi Phil,
I`ll be very interested in your upcoming capacitor comparisons.I`ve put Duelund CAST into my speakers last month(tweeter,only caps in the speaker). Phil in one simple word,stunning!Despite their higher cost relative to other WELL regarded caps,the CAST are on a different plane. The more transparent the speaker, the greater the effect.I`d pay 'twice' the cost of the CAST given my superb results in both my speaker and DAC .
Best Regards, |
Phil,
I forgot to mention the Duelund CAST is quite large and space could be a limiting factor. On my system page there`s a picture of my stock cap(solen) next to my 5.6uF CAST.Duelund also makes a VSF model capacitor that`s less expensive(and smaller) but better than nearly all others except CAST.
Charles, |
Charles, my UK Zu dealer concurs that Dueland CAST Cu capacitors on the tweeter are likely to be a fruitful avenue re upgrading the 4s to make the top end sweeter and more extended, and importantly, better suited to a wider variety of amps, be they SS, SET 845 or OTL.
Just waiting on Sean to inform of the capacitance value before possibly going ahead with the change.
I'm reasonably confident this may tame some of the glassiness apparent with my Hovland Radia SS power amp, obviating the need to go tubes only.
If it presents a level playing field and is more SS amp friendly, it'll be worth the price of admission. |
I'm pretty sure the caps that Zu uses are quite small and therefore less expensive, even for the Dueland.....please keep us updated:) |
Spirit,
Just to be clear on this point, the Duelund CAST will not 'add' warmth,fuller body or sweetness(nor will it subtract these qualities). The CAST is honest,pure and most of all 'natural'. what ever is the instrinsic character of your components,that`s what you`ll hear.
The CAST is superbly transparent with very high resolution, its presentation is simply organic as opposed to analytical-clinical.If you really like your Hovland combo the CAST will reveal them completely. If the current tweeter capacitor is a 'bottleneck'(limiting factor) then you`re in for a special treat once it`s replaced.If the baseline quality of a system is already very good the CAST allows the full potential to shine.It won`t gloss over inherent flaws.
Regards, |
A friend had a HP200/Radia combination. I liked the sound of that combination with his Sonus Faber Anniversario speakers. My primary gripe had nothing to do with sound--the steps on the attenuator are too course for finding the "right" volume.
While the performance was very good, there was no mistaking the sound for that of tube gear--there was still a slightly brittle edge to the initial attack of notes, and it was lacking a little bit in low level dynamics (good tube gear is more lively at lower volumes). The "glassiness" will probably be something that cannot be erased completely. I heard that with my friend's system, but, I did not find it to be nearly as bad as with other systems I've heard. While your amplification chain may partially be the source, the biggest culprit tends to be source gear, particularly digital sources like cd players and music servers (actually a lot of CDs themselves a mastered to have that kind of sound). I hear that problem with my all-tube amplification chain when playing digital sources (particularly my music server vs. my cd player).
I have not chosen to try to "cure" that problem because that would probably mean turning the sound to mush (something one can easily do with choice of tube gear).
Charles1dad,
Thanks for the interesting discussion of the Dueland components. I can easily experiment with my own system (crossover for each speaker is in three external boxes). Do you have any experience with their inductors?
|
Larryi
The Duelund inductors have been on my mind as something to do down the road.Per word of mouth they occupy their own superior level as do their Capacitors. There`re two versions available, CAST and waxed paper in oil(WPIO).Based on my rewarding results with the capacitors I have no reason to doubt what is said about the inductor`s performance.
Regards, |
Charles1dad,
Thanks. I know Dueland has been getting a lot of favorable write ups for their capacitors. I would expect that the same ears are used in designing other components, but, the science and art of making capacitors is quite different from that of making magnetic components. I have not really heard about their inductors, so it is good to hear from you that the word of mouth is favorable. It sounds like Dueland is another Audionote--good with multiple kinds of parts. |
So you like the Def IVs? Hurricane Sandy, with all the electric surges, killed one of my Def 1.5 amps-- Perfect rationale to explore updating or fixing the blown amp. I was going to post, but reading your( as usual) eloquent listening experiences with the Def IVs is giving me more than a mere itch. Were (I downloaded the manual) the speakers hard to tune? After living with these babies for a year, do you have any new info about the IVs? You were my inspiration for the 1.5s, so Im beholding. Having a wonderful SET amp and pre with NOS tubes will bring out the best in the IVs. Now all I have to do is convince my wife. This is going to be a very difficult sell for me waiting on delivery of an (much harder sell) environmentally unfriendly naturally aspirated 8 cylinder
.ooh I get the chills, but lets stay with audio.. |
Also:
How do (2) 12 down firing woofers compete with (8) 10 inch rear firing woofers? One of the many things I love about my 1.5s is the prodigious, window shattering bass, when summoned, raises the hairs on my neck. The bass, however, was never as taught and punchy as I would have liked. Jazz, however, was always wonderful. I accepted this as a characteristic of tubes. Do the IVs feel like they are moving as much air as the 1.5s? |
I cannot compare the Def 4s to the Def 1.5s; but compared to the Def 2s, the Def 4s have bass that is both more taught and more visceral. |
Charles, the 6Moons preview of the Druid V makes special mention of possible upgrading in SQ by substituting caps, from the stock Clarity Cap, thru the Intertechnik Audyn Copper to the Duelund Black. Consensus was that the Duelund is the way to go, although the Audyn well outperformed the stock cap. Really feeling this is the next place to go re upgrading.
Is the Duelund Black the same as your Duelund Cast Copper? |
Spirit,
Here`s the pecking order.
1)CAST, Silver foil(uber expensive!)
2)CAST, copper foil(expensuve)
3)VSF Black, Silver or copper
4)VSF, Silver or copper
5)Alexander, entry level
Given the cost of your Zu DEF IV. and the level and cost of your system, I`d go with the CAST copper and be done with it. No 2nd guessing, CAST are made for high caliber systems,get the best.My Coincident speaker is very good but the CAST simply raises it to a higher performance level. You won`t regret this capacitor improvement.
Regards, |
Charles, a pair of CAST Cu amount to about 10% the price off the spkrs, whereas CAST Ag appear to be special order everywhere, price TBA, my guess is maybe 2-3x the price.
You seem v. happy with the Cu, and I'm sure Sean of Zu will concur with you.
Unless he gives me a compelling reason to go down the Ag route, it seems that Cu will be it. |
I went back almost a year's worth of Phil and other Zubie Def4 posts. I'm more than excited about the idea of the 4s I already own the Ibis so Zu will reterminate for free. Now it's time to work on the wife. |
Warrenh, I can assure you, you WON'T be dissapointed. Whether you can smooth it over with the wife, that's another matter, the best of luck. You could always say it'll maintain your sanity in the twilight years making your relationship trouble free for years to come. Be prepared to buy her a bit of what she wants however.
Seriously, I stand by every word of my multi part review a few posts back, with the added comments that my indifference over the tweeter is fully resolved. The only down side is a tendency to bring out any OCD issues you may have - the 4s are such a transparent transducer that any changes you make will be fully heard, and of course this can go in the wrong as well as right direction. I'm finding toe in, bass adjustments on the spkr, and component supports/isolation (my choice is Symposium) making massive gains in SQ. I'm often 'in the zone' now, and I really feel this is one aspect of the upgrade merry-go-round I'm happy stepping off. |
I like the wife strategy. Your posts, as well as Phils' are great. I should have read through them before I posted. It's really fete acomplais, but if you ever have additional info, please keep me posted. I'm sure Phil, though he may be busy chopping down his evergreen, will be perusing the Zu thread. Phil, it's been a very long while. You were my tube mentor. Took me over to the other side, and I am still greatful. Sounds like the Def4s will keep me in tubedom. love to hear from you. Thanks again. |
It's quite apparent, that the Def4s for a Def 1.5 lover, is a no brainer; especially when my wife says:
Houston you have lift off! |
Spirit,
From what I`ve gathered, the Ag CAST is out of this world good.Many believe the Cu version though not equal to the Ag CAST is not very far behind at all.For this reason the Cu CAST is said to be the better value at 1/3-1/4 the cost(relative of course) for a superior cap that betters all else but the CAST Ag version.
Regards |
|
Charles, the price of a couple of CAST Cu is $1300-$1500 in relation to the spkrs costing $16k. Very much the territory of what I consider reasonable re i/c or power cord upgrades. If the CAST Ag is 3-4x this cost, that would be much more in the territory of spending money on a component upgrade such as an OTL or SET amp, and hence not that practical. CAST Cu it is.
Warren, congrats on making the decision to go full steam towards the 4s. My girlfriend congratulated me on my choice too as we visited the jewellery shop to select a very nice jewel for her, ha ha! |
Spirit,
Jewelry works everytime. Diamonds rule...I spoke to Sean at Zu and I'm sending back my 1.5s to put towards the 4s. I am very excited. |
Warren, consider Cosmic Carbon. My girlfriend picked this finish, followed by the earrings she always wanted, so it was a happy day for both of us 6 months ago when I paid for the lot! I think it's a fantastic finish, mates nicely with the Al driver rings, tweeter lens and base plate. So much more interesting than the standard black I was initially considering.
Be prepared for the familiarity of the Zu DNA of your current Defs, evolved into a heightened experience all 'round. Primarily a quantum leap in transparency and jump factor with the new Nanotec FRDs, much more powerful and integrated bass with the single fully adjustable down firing sub, and more natural extended treble response with the new Radian 850 tweeter. Really feel you'd have to spend 3x the amount to get any meaningful significant improvements with any other spkr (shudder to think what the $60k+ Dominances are capable of). |
This will be a real treat marrying a brand spanking new pair of speakers to a system, without the usual worry of speaker/electronics disagreements. This is going to be fun. I'm looking forward to sharing my tunes with you guys. Zu is back ordered, so my order will not happen until the end of January. |
I'm interested in the Intertechnik Audyn Copper for the Zu's. I was already placing an order to put the Audyns in my amp and would love to know the size and number needed for the Zus. Anybody know?
Cheers and Happy Holidays to you all:) |
Phil, I'm going to try and audition the Audion Black Shadows in the New Year. Will partner it with an Audion pre. I notice there is a choice of premier and 2/4 box Quattros. Other than the phono stage in the 2/4 box, is there any major difference in the line stage section of these three units? |
So, 10 weeks in, and the 4s continue to impress. What I'm most happy about at the moment is ironically what was always most lacking in the 2s, and what wasn't totally convincing on first listen, and that's the treble. The whole presentation now has an amazing sparkle but with none of the emphasised treble tilt so present in multi driver/xovered type speakers. There's no doubt the FRDs are still controlling the majority of output, but the Radian 850 unit is really proving it's worth without ever drawing undue attention to itself (no diamond, Beryllium or ceramic drivers for me, thank you!).
The result is a comfortable relaxed sound that really shines into the higher (and lower) frequencies, but only when needed, maintaining a really holistic presentation all the time, but then exploding in an instant where real headroom and dynamics are needed.
I'm really perplexed with anti Zu sound comments over the years, and now I believe this spkr with the Druid Vs really deserve to be heard and I'm sure appreciated by a greater number of potential buyers. I really believe Wilson, Magico B&W, YG etc. would lose sales if the new breed of Zus were wider listened to.
Further to treble comments, I'm still going to investigate the cap upgrade to Duelund CAST Cu, and I really am finding my Hovland amplification is synergising nicely, obviating a real need to go SET or OTL (although I will still investigate these options). For me, system wide improvements I feel are still the best way to go esp power and supports/vibration control. The 4s are so transparent that for the first time in my system changing racks are having profound outcomes. |
Last week I ordered my 4s, and asked Christian to put a 800-1000 hours on them for me. My little pooches will freak the f*** out and have ear damage while I am at work. Breaking in my 1.5s was a long laborious very hi dbl process, but no dog. Cant/wont do it again. NO patience waiting. I need instant (close to it) gratification. How many hours do you have on your babies, including the Zu hours? |
Break in is a very interesting phenomenon. My Def2s broke in fully within 48hrs, and this was direct from the US to London in sub zero temps!
My 4s otoh, delivered in the late Autumn, first spending 8 weeks with Roy Gregory who used them for his Audio Beat review, and yet they have been sounding more relaxed and powerful literally everyday since I've had them since late Oct.
Now, I have been experimenting a lot with setup, so who knows whether this is burning in or just that they are ruthlessly revealing, transparent and neutral and really benefit from really careful approach to set up.
All I can say is do NOT expect them to sound of their best immediately, and ask your wife to send out a search party periodically as you fail to resurface from your Zu project! |
48 hours?? Sub zero and they sounded good? What were you smoking?...lol....What was the shipping cost on that? Do you have those 850s crossing over behind you? From what Phil says, this seems to be the way to go, since the dispersion is better than previous Defs. Do you love the bottom end? I mean when youre cranking that mother to some serious earth shaking fender bass rock. You can give me the 4 string jazz bass too. Enough questions for ya? Oops there's another!! |
I get my kicks purely thru music, waccy baccy not so much. Shipping cost maybe around $700, but this is across the Atlantic.
Initially I had the tweeters crossing too far in front of me, but with Phil's advice reduced the toe in so they cross just behind - I sit 12' back from them, and just see the inner walls of the cabinets.
The only bottom end I prefer to the 4s is Beyonce's LOL, oh and my GFs'! But seriously, the 4s bass is SERIOUS. Hard to believe the single 12" driver so outclasses the 4 x 10"ers of the 4s, but it's almost embarrassing. The trick is to make sure the bass tilt doesn't crossover much higher than the natural roll offf of the FRDs into the sub bass, in most rooms this'll be 35-40Hz.
The rock solid Al plinth fixing of the sub driver, and superb performance of the FRDs into bass territory really elevates the performance over previous models.
The bass can really be cranked up, but what is really impressive is bass articulation at lower levels which enhances presence of the whole presentation. |
you're giving me the chills.... |
Initial chills of anticipation will give way to the warmth of what I call cognitive calm. In other words, the sound is so balanced, and very much akin to how music is experienced live, that a real subconcious relaxation envelops where you're not picking the sound apart, just allowing it to wash over you. This I really believe to be due to a lack of musical energy being degraded by traditional xover, and the FRDs providing over 90% of the musical spectrum in an entirely holistic manner. The spell is completed by a really sweetly performing high end and foundation gripping low end. But don't feel that talk of calm and relaxation means a laid back or boring sound, no nothing of the sort. The 4s possess uncanny rhythmic and dynamic grip ie one can relax into the music and have edge of your seat excitement, all at the same time.
I often find compliments from non-audiophiles most instructive of all: my best friend's GF, an avowed non believer in spending any money on a system, listened to an average lp pressing of some Elvis, and excitedly stated she couldn't locate where the music was coming from, she'd never experienced such transparency in listening to music before. Nuff said. Quite an achievement. Thank God I'm never likely to be afford the Dominance, if I did I might never leave the apartment! The other component in my system that is demonstrating this total lack of strain is my direct rim drive tt/linear tracking arm, so devoid of jarring analogue artifacts it's unreal.
So Warren, I just KNOW you are going to be so happy with these. You'll never feel the need to move beyond them. |
Thanks Spirit. I will keep you posted... |
Happy New Year Warrenh,
I am on my second set of DEf 4's and I can tell you that the first set with 850 hours were still getting smoother and faster, top to bottom, when they went to live with another family. The second set now have over 1000 hours. The highs seem to have settled down around 650 hours. (I do have different caps for the tweeters on this set). The mids were pretty much cooked at the 850-900 mark.
The subwoofers seem to be getting better still at 1000+ hours. I know some will call me nuts but the bass is still getting tighter, faster and fuller. Ray Brown's bass on Summerwind D2D and Soular Energy is a great test. Texture and three dimensional bass notes are becoming addictive. Never really heard bass like this before in my room. Thanks Sean! |
Soular Energy, Ray Brown. Wonderful to hear what a 4 string acoustic instrument can do. One of my favorite Ray Brown albums. |
Does anyone know what the power rating for the Def 4 subwoofer amp is rated at?
I don't see this information listed anywhere. |
The Def4 sub amp outputs a rated 400w into the sub-bass driver's nominal 6 ohms load. The amp is sourced from Hypex, an OEM version of the UcD400. It's as much responsible for Def4's seriously improved sub-bass performance as is the downfiring driver, over earlier Definitions.
Phil |
Vetterone, there has been a little bit of discussion on this thread re changing caps on Def4 tweeters. Charles esp. recommends Duelund CAST Cu, or Ag. What specifically did you change to, what has your experience been, and did you have the stock caps in your first pair of 4s?
This is not the most straightforward change, since one cannot practically perform an a-b, so need to go down this path with confidence that the change will be significant, and positive across a whole spectrum of music.
At the moment, what I'm loving about the 4s is a real transparency in the treble, which together with the delicacy of the FRDs is providing an almost electrostatic like quality to the sound. Can this treble quality really be improved a great deal further with cap switch? |
I upgraded my 2 Mini Method amps to the new def 4 hypex versions, they are 400w as Phil says and sound far better than the old 120w ones. Bass is deeper and faster with way more headroom BUT the PEQ functions are far better allowing superior integration with the mains. |
The high frequencies of the 4s are what are really impressing me at the moment. I've heard other spkrs with more "spectacular" treble, but it always in the long run seems discontinuous from the mids.
In comparison, the 4s' high end sounds so organic, and continuous with the mids. I'm sure this is a function of the new nano FRDs being so much more snappy and transparent, covering a good deal of the higher spectrum anyway, leaving the Radian supertweeter less strained and more integrated. It can't be any coincidence that there's no complicating xover to contend with.
I'm finding my Hovland amps are synergising nicely, but am still interested in hearing opinions as to whether a Duelund CAST Cu cap upgrade will enhance further sweetness in the presentation. Need more opinions please. |
