Hey Morgan, did you ever get that other PX25? |
Spirit,
It is not that they're poor, but they sound better with more gain. As Phil notes I have the early drivers with the pointy phase cones in my Def 2s--can't wait for the nanos I ordered to come in. Gerrit told me it would be towards the end of this month.
Phil,
Great to read! I do recall your analysis as to the aliveness of the earlier models vs. my 'darker' definitions, but I didn't recall it in the context of low level listening. Very cool that it will further improve things for those late night hours when i don't want to go to bed, but do want my family to remain sleeping.
Morgan,
Awesome to read. I had the same issues you did with my Superflys--when placement wasn't locked in perfectly the top end could present kinda hot and fatiguing and everywhere else didn't really fill in as it should. I do think this was a result of the FRD and its finickyiness to placement in our prior models as that is a memory now and the Defs are very easy to make sound good (though I need to spend time getting the most from them).
Are you still using the AN211 with them? I should have mine ordered next week. |
>>>The major problem I had with the Omen Defs was the high frequencies which I thought was related to the tweeter. However with the same tweeter in the Def iii's, this problem is completely gone and everything sounds better. I think it must be that the improvement is from the new Nano Drivers.....detail, top end air, staging, imaging, etc. are all world class........<<<
It's not just drivers. Quite a lot of the upper midrange and treble glare on Omen Def that also blurs detail a bit is coming from the comparatively excitable cabinet. In the Def2, Def3 and Def4 cabinets, you get to hear the drivers much closer to their intrinsic performance than in the lower end Zu speakers. This isn't a knock on the less expensive Zu speakers but instead is intended to spotlight the cabinet as elemental to Definition's overall sound. If it were only drivers and internals, then Omen Defs could sound much closer to Definitions than they do.
The cabinet and baffle engineering and build decisions in the upper end Zu speakers are often overlooked but they are hugely influential to the improvements you are hearing when moving up from the simpler cabs.
Phil |
Glory, you're reading a little too much into my comments. I made the choice of Cosmic Carbon from a few square inches of swatch, having never seen this colour in the flesh. So I just wanted some feedback from actual owners of Zu's in this colour that I hadn't made a huge mistake.
I'm not expecting anyone to say one thing or the other re my gear, just giving other readers of this thread an idea of my system so qs/opinions on the Def4s have a reference point.
If you really think I need adulation, I do, ALL the time. Why do you think I contribute to this thread, contributed by others who ALL need adulation too? Maybe you do, also.
The UK distributor asked kindly if I'd lend my spkrs out for review (since v. few pairs exist in the UK), and I gladly said yes. My little bit to advance the good name of Zu to the audio community which really do need to sit up and notice them. No $$$s in it for me.
You screwed up and should have checked your facts first LOL.
Your comments on the Olympics are the first correct comments you've made towards me, yes I very much agree with you there. |
Spirit,
If it's your goodwill on the sacrifice of your new speakers to a review for Zu then good for you. Hopefully he doesn't have tin ears.
I Had no facts just questions for you so no homework had to be done. Can questions be incorrect when one wants further understanding about the review of your new speakers or why you have a need for approbation on your audio pick?
Thanks for the answers.
You should be proud of your country. Class act!! |
Hi Mark and Gopher,
Unfortunately the AN211 went home just before I received the Zu's so I cannot comment on the pairing. And yes I did receive the Art Audio PX-25 and that sounded amazing on my initial limited session....still will need a few weeks at home to change tubes and compare but Sean loves the amp and as soon as he walked into my place he spotted it from across the room and said it was one of his favorites.......I live in an apt so the 6 watts is more than enough for me for now........ |
Glory, sorry if I've misinterpreted your comments, it seemed to be a question with your pre decided conclusion in the same paragraph. I'm sure we'd all agree on a lot.
I'm really hoping the UK review will be positive, the reviewer certainly likes Def2s.
It's so hard to get people to consider spkrs outside the mainstream (ProAc, B&W, Tannoy etc.) that if my contribution to a positive result for Zu entails, I'll be v. glad.
Sean and the ZuCrew are some of audio's good guys.
Btw, over in the Great Britain, we just are so proud of what TeamGB have achieved. Thanks for your kind words! |
Hi Morgan,
I found you. :-)
Hugh |
Phil,
Hugh here.
Now I can hang around here to educate myself.
Thanks,
Hugh |
Hugh,
From the tech side of things yes but from a system building side a no.
Building a system takes time and $$$ and not having a 1960's mind set. |
Roscoe,
I had been deliberately quiet with my impressions, but now that my old speakers are sold I'll say the Def 2s with the old drivers (pre 2010 HO) are phenomenal! Ditching my Von Schweikerts and coming back to team Zu is one of the best things I've done in this hobby. There isn't a single area I don't prefer the Zu's performance in and in most areas I prefer it by a significant margin.
I talked to Gerrit last week and he expects my nanotech drivers to ship on or around the 24th. I also plan on finalizing my order with Hugh, who just joined this thread, for a Melody AN211 to drive these beasts. After that I plan to lay low for a while and get a handle on what I'm hearing.
I'm pretty sure when the dust settles most (if not all) of my rig will be in "complete" mode and the nervosa urges will subside. |
Excellent choice Gopher. :) |
|
Phil, when I receive my Def4s I'm going to install them with my current Hovland HP200 tube pre/Radia SS pow amps.
Luckily in the UK I will have the opportunity to audition Audion Black Shadows SET pow/Audion tube pre (or Silvercore TVC pre), Dave Berning VOTL 230 pre/pow and ASR 4 box amps.
My new tt is unbelievably fast, a function of it's neutrality, lack of overhang and superior timing, and I have my eyes (ears?) on a very fast, analogue like cd player. From what I've read, the Def4s have a very fast delay of 5ms betwen the drivers, as opposed to the usual 20ms (a function of no crossover maybe?) contributing to maximum speed.
This preamble is to state that speed and neutrality are becoming the benchmarks for me.
I know the ASR, and esp. the Berning combination of amps are v. fast, and I gather you feel the Audion Black Shadow is just as fast as these choices. Am I correct in this? The reason I ask is that I've never heard an all tube pre/pow combination that I was totally content with in this respect, but with your encouragement, maybe I should consider Audion. |
Spirit,
The ASR sounds neither notably "fast" nor "slow" so I don't think speed in a hifi sense is a notable trait for that amp. I'll say it's "fast enough." Given where you are starting (Hovland/Hovland) the ASR will probably strike you as the least interesting in this particular respect. The Hovland 200 preamp was intentionally voiced to sound completely modern, compared to the more vintage-voiced 100, and as a result it's a "fast" tube preamp and the Radia won't disappoint in that respect.
Audion circuits are simple and sound characteristically speedy -- more so that any tube products I can think of. The Audion preamps are beautifully toneful yet neutral and transparent but for now they lack remote controls. The power amps, regardless of SE or P-P or power level or tubes used carry these traits forward. You can "slow" them a bit by choosing tubes accordingly but there's no reason to strive for an explicitly slower sound specifically. Black Shadow has silver in the signal path wiring and silver secondary transformer windings. Cap and resistor selections make their contributions. A Silvercore TVC is also likely to be a good front end for it. Berning amps have also always been notable for speed, transparency and tone within their topology. So if you like immediacy and event speed, everything you're planning to audition with Def4s qualify. You'll just have to listen and draw your own conclusions. I expect the ASR will prove the least engaging of the electronics you're considering beyond the Hovland gear you already own. The Berning is its own thing. The Audion combination represents single-ended exceedingly well executed for music. You're getting speakers that will lay bare the differences so you can easily choose.
In the Black Shadows, the 845 tube makes a big difference. The expensive KR845, the inexpensive cryogenically treated 845A, and the metal plate 845C are the "fastest" readily available options. The 845B and the stock 845A are the slower of the bunch but the general circuit execution sounds so fast, the total sound retains exceptional perceived speed. The 845B is reliable and brings exceptional tone -- I want to cryo a pair to pick up the advantages I heard in the chilled 845A. The amps ship with the standard 845A which is fine. There is a Sophia 845TypeIII that I'm optimistic about but haven't yet tried. The input and driver tubes have a significant effect but the stock tubes are certainly very good for audition.
Each of these amps will have differing bass characteristics. When you switch between them, adjust the sub level and EQ to tune the bottom end to a common standard, else you will be apt to draw false conclusions depending on your biases. You could view the Berning as a "midpoint" between the ASR and the Black Shadow but that will leave you with bass perceptions that infect your view of the midrange on the amps that aren't the centerpoint one. I haven't heard any two amps on Def4s so far not require tweaking the sub parametrics when switching between them. Remember the sub amp is deriving its input from the power amp output - not from a line-level signal.
Phil |
The Audion and Berning will have to be a significant improvement beyond where my Hovlands are at present to consider upgrading. I remember when I got them in 2005 I was so happy with the excellent synergy between the tube pre and SS pow, and I'm still happy with them now.
I have a strong suspicion that the better bandwidth and transparency of the Def4s esp. lifting the veil from the treble of the Def2s will reveal the Hovland combo to be more excellent than ever. |
Listened to the Zu Def MK4 back in July (Zu House Party) the same day that Gopher did and was very impressed. Also, listened to the Omen Def and Soul Superfly and made the plunge and purchased the Omen Def with upgraded Def3 tweeter and cap upgrade. The tweeter and cap upgrade will arrive in couple of weeks since the cap is on back order.
So far I am enjoying the setup being driven by Response Audio Bella Extreme 3205 integrated with Black Treasure KT88. |
Phil, plus others, any comments on the Zu Event SpeakOn connectors which maintains cable integrity from internal drive unit wiring to amps?
Is it really the advantage it's touted to be? Have been quite happy to order it since price differential over regular hook up was reasonable.
Haven't seen it on any other spkr installations. |
My speaker wires terminate as banana plugs. The connections with the Def 2s were always tenuous. These are more secure. |
I unequivocally recommend Zu's B3 cable geometry continuity via the Speakon connector. Zu had abandoned this for several years in favor of the Cardas multi-way binding post. But because my Druids are early models continually upgraded, they were built with the Speakon + the Cardas connections. So I had Zu Ibis speaker cables on both my Druid and Definition systems, with the Ibis terminated with Speakon on the Druids and bananas or spades on the Definitions. Same lengths in both systems since I use mono pairs of amps on both. So I was able to listen to the difference between Speakon preserving the B3 geometry vs. Cardas connection interrupting B3.
There was no aspect of the sound that was better via Cardas and many subtle - but in the aggregate significant - improvements to driving the Druids via Speakon/continuous B3. If this can be heard on Druids, imagine the difference to be more obvious on the more resolving Definition 4.
The question then always asked is, "....well then does that mean Zu B3 Event via Speakon is better than any other cable connected via Cardas....?"
My answer is, that depends on you. Zu Event is an unusually neutral cable, very clean, transparent, toneful. It also gives a coherent sonic presentation. It is much more neutral than most cables at any price. Given the "fixed parametric equalizer" nature of most cabling, whether you will prefer another cable to Zu B3, or not, very much depends on what role cables play in compensating for other traits elsewhere in your system. I know, for instance, that the older Ibis and the newer Event cables have been too transparent for some listeners using solid state amps. Depending on your sources, especially digital, other traits may be preferred. One of the best alternate speaker cables I've heard for a Zu speaker is the Auditorium 23 popular with the Shindo/Leben subculture. Others here have argued for far more expensive cables with complex geometries and multiple dielectrics. I don't recommend that.
The question of whether there is any non-B3 cable better than B3 and therefore preferred via Cardas two-post vs. B3 via Speakon is impossible to answer simply because no one has heard all of the cable offerings under identical or comparable conditions, and cables are so often used as compensating tone controls. What I can say is that Zu Event and the older Ibis are exceptionally neutral and therefore not highly useful as compensating elements for correcting another component's traits. They are also quite transparent, revealing, dynamic, and allow coherent presentation of music -- and they are reasonably-priced relative to the rest of the market. All of this is especially so if connected via Speakon to a Zu speaker equipped for that. But for Speakon-connector Zu speakers, Zu offers a nifty Speakon adaptor with the Cardas two-post clamp so you can cable whatever and however you want.
Phil |
Phil, I'm glad you stress the neutrality of the Event B3 SpeakOn cable. I'm finding more and more that neutrality and speed are what I'm looking for. My tube pre/ss pow Hovland combination will benefit from it I'm confident going into the Def4s.
Can you comment any further on the upgrade to the structure of the speaker? It sure seems beefed up wrt to the Def2s. From what I gather the front baffle and base plate the super tweeter and sub woofer drive unit are fixed to are pretty substantial and contribute to the improved sound quality. |
There is further bracing of the Def2 cabinet internally to make it a Def3, and some added quieting of the structure. But Def3 does not get the immense stiffening of the front baffle resulting from the inclusion of the compression-mounted Radian 850 super-tweeter. I haven't seen the internal drawings of the cabinet mods to create Def3s from Def2s.
Def4 on the other hand is a completely new internal structure, with FRDs in a mini-Griewe chamber, the structural stiffening of the front baffle by the massive Radian compression structure, and the whole speaker being mechanically anchored by the super-stiff machined-aluminum plinth to which the down-firing cast-basket 12" sub is bolted. The internal wood plates forming the Griewe load slash remaining cabinet talk and arrest booming by the tall sidewalls. The FRDs are isolated internally from the subwoofer chamber. So you have the speaker bisected into two very strong boxes within the tower, on that massive machined aluminum foundation.
Phil |
Thanks again Phil, your informed comments on the Def4s are really filling me with supreme confidence that when mine are installed in 4-6 weeks, I'm going to get that step up in performance from the Def2s. |
I'm excited and optimistic as well. My nanotech drivers are out for delivery now, though I'm out of town and won't be able to install them till Sunday night. |
Welp... I returned from out of town this evening and my nanotech drivers were waiting for me. Like a good addict, I went to work swapping the original def 2 drivers out with these things and am pleased to report the job was completed with no major casualties...
First impressions of the new drivers is that they resolve a lot more information. There is so much more detail to music without coming off analytical, but rather more delicate. Tonality seems great and strings are just great and, while stage is a bit constricted/compressed I think with burn in these drivers will be exceptional in my system.
Can't wait to hear things mature/develop. |
Gopher.
Can anyone install the nanotech drivers? Even a techno klutz/ |
The installation is pretty simple, but it is real work. You take out the 8 screws, remove the silver trim and carefully pull the driver out. Theres an adhesive tape near the supertweeter so go slow until it gives way. I ripped too hard in one place and tore my finish right off--fortunately the blemish is covered by the speaker/trim otherwise I'd be pretty upset with myself.
After that you put on new tape where the old was, re-attach the crimped on taps onto the drivers in the same positions as where they were on the oldies and button her back up.
You'll hear the promise of the new drivers immediately, but they won't be as engaging and will sound kinda constrained. At least that is the case in my system. I can hear things shaking lose after 12 hours of playing Isotek burn in tones though. |
Gopher: I have noticed continual burn In and improvement over the last month. Sean says they all receive 600 hours of burn in at the factory, but they do continue to get better and better over time. Enjoy! |
Thanks, Morgan.
They were sounding pretty good this morning after another 8 hours of Isotek tones looped overnight as I slept.
I think they've improved enough at this point that I can return my old drivers to Zu without worry to retrieve my deposit on them. |
Gopher,
Which Isotek cd are you using for burn in? Would like to purchase one.
Thanks |
Is this the Isotek - http://www.amazon.com/Teac-Esosysdisc-Esoteric-System-Conditioning/dp/B006RIEPKA/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1346792898&sr=8-3&keywords=Full+System+Enhancer+Burn-In+CD
or
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-3521-isotek-full-system-enhancer-burn-in-cd.aspx |
It is the one on the Music Direct link with 3 tracks. I just leave that disc looping whenever possible to help speed up burn in. I don't know if it really works quicker then regular burn in, but its definitely not slower... |
Morganc and Sean are correct. My Def 4s get better and better even though I have had them for almost a year. Granted, they only get played on weekends and even then are not driven hard; however, there is a smoothness that emerges only with time. I also suspect that some of the factory burn-in may "revert" with long shipping distances especially on an airplane where the cargo hold temperature can be cold. |
I think 600 hrs of factory burn in should be sufficient. I would think that any "reversion" during shipping would be overcome in a nice warm room and a couple of hours of Led Zep. I mean 600 hrs! that is a long time. Geeze.
BTW when will the V's be released? |
Yeah, I'm also curious about the new Druid V. Hopefully it will be the sweet spot in Zu's line. |
What exactly is the purpose of the new Druid V when the Soul Supreme supposedly incorporates the same nanotech drivers along with the Radian super tweeter? What would the difference be? Internal bracing/rigidity and the wiring? |
Gopher,
Druid is a form factor iconic for Zu and you could view it as Zu's most "architectural market" product. Until we hear both Soul Supreme and Druid V, we won't know the relative results but I expect Druid V to have more sophisticated cabinet composition than Soul, so the drivers composition may not explain all of it. Druid V's machined aluminum plinth should also have some sonic benefits over Soul's plinthless bottom. But even if one performs as well as the other, there will be buyers who choose Druid on form factor alone. I expect Druid V to sound a little better than Soul Supreme or at least tilted to a somewhat different bias, as Soul Superfly is a more forward sounding, striving and punchy speaker than the more relaxed and bohemian Druid 4-08 that inspired it.
Phil |
I will be very pesky re the V at the RMAF. I will also have a briefcase full of cash for the Zu man. (or not) |
Druid V is now on their website |
I am also curious about difference between Omen Def, Superfly, and Druid V.
It also seems the superfly has gone down in sensitivity (100 db/w) with nano-driver than it was before.
pity |
There should be a bit different dispersion pattern between Druid and Superfly I would guess since the height and tweeter placement are quite different. |
Gopher did you upgrade your tweeters as well? If not why not? I in possession of a pair of Definitions and would like to do the same upgrade. |
I did not. I already had definition 2 speakers in the first place, and this is the same tweeter/cap the def 3 employs to my understanding.
I'm not a hundred percent sold on the driver swap yet to he honest. I hear the technical improvements but I've lost my system synergy I was just establishing with my new to me def 2s and am hoping I didn't make a mistake jumping the gun and returning my drivers.
I've been speaking to Phil a good bit behind the scenes and I'm optimistic a couple tube changes can rest my synergy... accordingly I have some 211b tubes on their way... until then, I'm slightly nervous. |
Def2 had a slightly reticent character compared to Def1.5 before it. Simply installing the nano FRD or even the 2010 HO FRD to stock Def2 shifts the presentation of the speaker to a more vivid, forward sound comparatively. This is good from an ultimate fidelity standpoint but whether one likes it better without going all the way to Def4 and the benefits of the Radian 850 and cabinet improvements is quite subjective. The major revisions to Definitions from Def1.5>Def2 in cabinet construction especially made Def2 the most forgiving of the Definition versions until Def4.
Putting the hotter FRDs in Def2s change the sound profile enough that if you do it, you should plan on having to work back through the gear chain prepared to make one or more adjustments. It could be minor, like changing tubes or it could be major, perhaps changing power amp or DAC. These speaker models are integrated designs so making incremental sub-assembly upgrades necessarily disrupts a balance intentionally achieved earlier. Also the newer FRDs take lots of time to settle in.
I am sure Gopher's concerns will end and he will get back his briefly-achieved system synergy. Some patience and experimentation will be needed to pin it. Going from Def2>Def4 I changed my preamp, for example. There was nothing wrong with my Klimo Merlino Gold +, but it's slight forwardness which was so complementary to Def2 was not quite as well matched to the midrange of Def4 as my Melody Pure Black 101 -- *in my room*. Point is, there are some general guidelines for making these incremental upgrades work, but you really dial them in by working with the specific context of your room, system components and your own emotional triggers for satisfaction.
I got but did not choose to upgrade my Def2s with the 2010 HO FRD, for example, because after having extensive exposure to a friend's Def2s that were built with HO drivers I concluded that in my room I was better off waiting for Def4. In Gopher's case I know that specifically putting nano FRDs in Def2s will remove Def2's forgiveness of the glare in the "A" version of the 211 or 845 power tube. It's his place to start the upstream adjustments.
Phil |
Hi Phil,
Are there specific characteristics of your DEF IVs that led you to purchase the Melody preamp(very positive Dagogo review) rather than an Audion pre to match your Audion amplifiers( thinking brand synergy)?
Regards, |
Charles,
I love Audion preamps and have one in my 2nd system. An Audion would be a great and synergistic match for Def4. But the DACs I am evaluating in advance of building a server to rip my CD library to have the option of balanced outputs from which they sound better, conclusively. In a couple of cases the bal outs are separately voiced. The Melody has Audion attributes with one set of balanced inputs. Now, those inputs are not true balanced, but using them as-is still sounds better than using a bal>rca adapter to the single-ended inputs.
A more minor advantage is that presently Audion has no preamps with remote volume control; the Melody has a very good one. My Audion preamp is a 1st gen with full IR remote including for input switching.
There's no sonic reason not to pair an Audion preamp with Def4; on the contrary there's every reason to do so, my situation excepted.
Phil |
Phil was right again. I got some new power tubes (Shuguang 211-B very limited edition) for my 211 SET and things are sounding fantastic without any real burn in time on them.
These nanotech drivers really leverage the difference between digital and analog as well. My Kuzma is kicking some Metrum Octave tail tonight! |
So Gopher, and Phil, what's going on with such a dramatic change going from so-so sound to ground breaking with a change of tubes?
The main reason I ask is that my Def4s are finally being installed in a couple of weeks, and my pre (Hovland HP-200) is tube. I'm running them with 1950s NOS Telefunkens.
I'd hate to have to investigate new amp combinations at this time, and I'm not the best person to tube roll.
Btw, LOVE these tubes, they sure are fast, but not too clinical, in my current system. |
Spirit,
The balance and presentation of the Def 2 and Def 4 drivers are night and day. The Def 2 is darker, less resolved (and less exposing) richer (I think so) and far more laid back. The Def 4 on the other hand is open, extremely revealing, super transparant and a lot more lively.
The stock 211 tubes I had were harsh, unsophisticated and had a good bit of glare to them. Changing them for the 211Bs the horrible glare (which the Def 4 drivers ruthlessly laid bare) and adding dimensionality, beauty, body and tone made a HUGE difference.
Phil will probably speak for himself, but he told me he had a similar experience with 845A vs. 845B tubes in going from Def 1.5s to 2s to 4s.
I have some GE 211s which are supposed to arrive tomorrow, will be interesting comparing them, though I'll likely have to change my driver tubes. |
Thanks Gopher. I found the stock tubes in my Hovland pre were always a bit plain and undynamic with the Def2s. This was remedied by going the NOS Telefunken route, opening up transparency, sparkle, speed and dynamics, but not sacrificing analog warmth.
It looks like they'll be an ideal match for the Def4s.
Additionally, my new direct rim drive tt/air bearing linear arm is showing my cd player a clean pair of heels. From your comment, this gap may be widened still further. |
