Anyone try modern 6sn7 Shuguang WE type vs NOS RCA,Ken Rad

I hope you get some answers, I’ve been asking about Shuguang WE 6SN7s on different forums with no replies.

I’m using Ken Rad VT-231s with Sylvania VT-231’s in my amp and the sonics are revealing, dynamic, and holographic.

I too have a stash of NOS 6SN7, all of the above and more, bought about 10+ years ago. I now use new production Tung-Sol coz these NOS babes are getting too expensive to get out of the box and use!

The new production TS 6SN7 (they are GTBs - actually heaps more robust than GT types) sound perfectly fine with my amp (EL34 push pull with 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier).

So Shuguang have always been on my radar, and they look pwetty. This is important, of course.

However -

I am confused about all the variants, and they are sometimes (often, usually) shown as CV181, which are in fact electronically not equivalent and are likely to blow up the amp. The current draw of CV181s is 50% more than 6SN7s. Ouch.

So, I’d like to see a test/specifications before I use any. Google is usually my friend to find specs but computer says no with Shuguang 6SN7/cv181. Might be someone else here who can help.

No specs listed, but these 6SN7WE are not the same as the Psvane CV181.

https://www.hifi-amplifiers.com/en/shuguang-electronic-tube-valve-c-68/shuguang-we6sn7-plus-vacuum-tube-high-end-western-electric-best-matched-p-5281.html

Oh, I see there is a Shuguang Treasure CV181 as well.

More WE’s...

https://m.aliexpress.com/i/32985770711.html

Lots of words in this rant from about 2009, and worth reading it all at one’s leisure.

In the meantime, this is the relevant message, about half way down just above the picture of the tube on the left -

This is why the CV181Z might not be a drop in replacement for the 6SN7. Typical 6SN7 heaters draw about 0.6A and the CV181z draws about 0.9A (900mA), the old Mullard CV181 drew 950mA. This 50% increase in heater current amounts to 0.6A for a pair of CV181 in a circuit, which as you can see represents the load of a whole extra double triode.

I’d be more decisive. "This is why the CV181 (Z, whatever) IS NOT a drop in replacement for the 6SN7." Eventually your amp will take up smoking.

The shuguang CV 181 tubes are a 6sn7 drop in replacement, the Mullard cv181 tubes are not they have a higher heater current of 900ma.

@invalid That is blatant misinformation. It has to be also deliberate as you have clearly read the quote I provided which mentions Mullard (drawing 950mA, by the way).

Care to explain to the community?

I have been running a pair of the Shu Guang WE6SN7 Plus tubes in a Dennis Had Inspire headphone/preamp for about a year now and love them. Have about 700 hours on them with no issues at all and they replaced a pair of Sylvania 50s chrome dome tubes that have proven to be my favorites till the Shu Guangs showed up, still go back to the chrome domes every now and then but do prefer the Shu Guangs overall. I am a Shu Guang/Psvane fan and have been since I tried their smaller signal tubes 10 years ago, currently run at least 23 of their tubes in preamps, amps, headphone amps, dacs and phono stages and have had no failures as of yet. VIVA tube is a good source and I have had really good luck buying on ebay direct from China. I thought it would be prudent to look for readily available current issue tubes and the Psvane and Shuguangs have allowed me to have a go to that is fresh stock. When I reference their small tubes I am referring to their Treasure series. I just bought a Psvane Classic Series 274B rectifier Tube and hope it works out as right now Brimar rectifier tubes are my favorites. Enjoy the music

That is blatant misinformation. It has to be also deliberate as you have clearly read the quote I provided which mentions Mullard (drawing 950mA, by the way).

Care to explain to the community?

You must have read my post wrong, I acknowledged that the nos mullard's are not drop in replacements, but the shuguang CV 181's are, as they are not the same as the Mullard cv181's. I have no idea why shuguang labeled them this way.

I’m off this week so I took out the Shuguang WE plus 6sn7’s today and put in RCA gray glass let them run for most of the day.

The RCA’s sound very smooth nice detail and bass. Put Shuguang back in and have to admit it’s a very nice tube. The RCA did not embarrass it at all. There just different Shuguang is a very refined tube. RCA more relaxed. 
 

I’m a little surprised. It’s a very natural detailed tube and could be happy with it. I haven’t tried my other 6sn7’s,

I do have some quads of Shuguang KT-88-T and WE Plus that came with amp that have never been used, brand new and I hear these Shuguang go out and red plate there first few hours in the amp. I’ve heard they have quality control problems. That may be okay in a signal tube but a power tube is another story. That is a concern. That’s not something a NOS Mullard xf2 EL34 would do. It could but doubtful.

@paulcreed  the RCA grey glass is a very nice tube. It does exhibit a relaxed feel with warmth and good detail. What I look for these days is a more lively tube, neutral, focused, with a large soundstage. I listen to classical (all types). Would you say the WE Plus have these characteristics?

I'm looking forward to more of your tube rolling.

@tooblue  would you say the WE6SN7 Plus has similar qualities to Sylvania? I think I have every 6SN7 Sylvania except the elusive 6SN7W.

And Viva Tubes carries the WE Plus?

The Shuguang is definitely more lively than RCA. In a strange way I prefer Shuguang as much as RCA but for different reasons. If I want a slow relaxed darker presentation RCA is my choice.

I’m not good with audiophile words but the Shuguang is clean, transparent, fast, kind of like the focus has been adjusted correctly on a lens. I think it’s very well balanced, neutral with nice air nice bass. Very musical tube while still being transparent which can be hard to pull off sometimes. If I was to think new production tube this is not what I would have imagined.

I’m going to compare my other tube to Shuguang but I don’t think any of them will put Shuguang to shame. 

These are stock tubes Don Sachs provided with his amps, best stock tubes I’ve ever received. They all have about 500 hours on them.

@invalid You must have read my post wrong, I acknowledged that the nos mullard’s are not drop in replacements, but the shuguang CV 181’s are, as they are not the same as the Mullard cv181’s. I have no idea why shuguang labeled them this way.

OK, I’ll make bold the bit that seems to be invisible. 900mA is 50% more current draw than a 6SN7. This is known and accepted, and poses a risk to your amplifier. edit - of course, ask your amp manufacturer if CV181z are compatible with it. If so, all is well - this may very well be the situation.

So -

One - The Shung tubes are clearly marked as CV181z. This is not in doubt.

Two - Being a reviewer and something of a shill, I trust that he had access to the spec sheet.  Evidence of this is that he rates the CV181z as 900mA, not 950mA which is the Mullard specs.  He is not merely guessing.

Three - He also repeats words to this effect elsewhere and also in a follow up review some years later, so its no typo.

Four - that the CV181z does sound better (brighter, more lively etc) than any 6SN7 is corroborative evidence that it is rated higher. An EE may be able to confirm this.

So people, unless you have evidence to the contrary which I will happily bookmark, this stands as reference in the meantime.

Failing this, it is not a 6SN7 and it is negligent of the manufacturer to market this as a 6SN7.

This is why the CV181Z might not be a drop in replacement for the 6SN7. Typical 6SN7 heaters draw about 0.6A and the CV181z draws about 0.9A (900mA), the old Mullard CV181 drew 950mA. This 50% increase in heater current amounts to 0.6A for a pair of CV181 in a circuit, which as you can see represents the load of a whole extra double triode.

Surely someone here who has bought the Shung CV181z can obtain a spec sheet from the manufacturer to confirm or refute the reviewers words?

This would clear up any issues and I’d be happy to shut up and buy some should they be 600mA.

Easy. If not, why not? These tubes have been manufactured for at least a decade.

I’m not good with audiophile words but the Shuguang is clean, transparent, fast, kind of like the focus has been adjusted correctly on a lens. I think it’s very well balanced, neutral with nice air nice bass. Very musical tube while still being transparent 

Great description, Paul. This seems promising for my preferences in tube playback; clean, transparent, focused, musical.

This would clear up any issues and I’d be happy to shut up and buy some should they be 600mA

They are 600ma, the only thing you have to be concerned with is if your tube sockets are to close together they might not fit as the glass envelope is much larger than the 6sn7.

For owners of the WE6SN7, what is the width of the fat bottle?

At its wides point exactly 2 inches, if bottles touch you can sagger an adapter between every other tube if space allows.

@invalid Thankyou for those specs, I am sufficiently comforted and will indeed buy at least a pair or two in the new year.

My amp has good space - I can even fit those round globe ones you may or may not have seen - they are kinda cute, but possibly no longer in production. Something of novelty value.

Now I have to figure out the nuances of the different types available - I’ve seen a at least a couple versions on AliExpress. I prefer premium.

Edit - just checked, Psvane (Cossor?) make the round ones, smokey glass. Tempted!

Thank you @paulcreed . 

They won't fit my amp, I'll check out adapters. They will fit my preamp, maybe I should start there.

 Who's the most trusted vendor to buy from? 

lowrider how far are closest outside diameter on your tube sockets from each other if that makes sense? My power amp has 3 6sn7 tubes up front and I have to use an adapter on the middle one. The OD of sockets is maybe a little less than 5/8 or 5/8 of an inch from each other and the adapter works to fit fat bottle between the other 2 mounted flush, it’s close and they almost touch.

I put Ken Rad vt-231 in it only ran in for a couple hours maybe it needed more time. I took them out added Shuguang and everything was airy with bass sounding correct. Ken Rads had reseeded highs bass was exaggerated just dull.  I’m going to run Ken Rads again but let them run all day they have been sitting up for years. The more I do this I may like this Shuguang better than all my other 6sn7’s. Maybe the Sylvania vt-231’s will change my mind. Glad when I find best tube and can leave it alone.

Who's the most trusted vendor to buy from? 

A prudent question.  I'm currently looking on eBay, although AliExpress is a good alternative if paypal is available.  All from China, I can't see that there is any organised distribution/dealer network.

Focused on one with 6,000 transactions, 99.3% positive feedback   That's for a pair of premium shuguang's, in a fancy solid looking box.

The box is a signal (information) that they are genuine, however defined.  I don't care for the box itself, pffftt.

@paulcreed  My amp uses 6 input tubes. They are in pairs from front of amp to back. Measuring outer diameter at closest position there is 1" between L & R tubes. However, only .25" between front pair, middle pair, and rear pair. 

Paul, it's funny you mentioned the sound of your Ken Rads. I'm burning in a pair of NOS from Vintage Tube and there are rolled off highs and no bass extension. So yeah, you need some more hours on those tubes.

@noske  Interesting, no dealer network. I would only buy the pair in the box, dont want any loose tubes from China.

Oh, there are outfits like Grant Fidelity that are dealers. I dunno, perhaps others.

I still think its outrageously disingenuous for the manufacturer to use the CV181 name. Its an identity which contains important information.

Its inaccurate and sloppy and absurd.... have the post-modernists taken control of the asylum?

Things are tricky enough at the best of times with tubes without us poor sods (I’m sure I’m not the only one) having to go in circles trying to figure stuff out.

End rant. Phew.

@lowrider57  sorry, stepped away from the thread for awhile. Just checked the Viva tube website and I do not see where they even have shuguang, just psvane. The measurement given of 2 inch width is spot on @1.98 inches. I purchased mine off ebay from Vicaudio_1 out of China but he does not show them for sale at this time. I have seen them pop up on Audiogon from a dealer out of China and for some reason I want to say it was Pavanedirect, I even tried to order them from him when I bought mine but they were out of stock. I believe Grand Fidelity has severed their ties with Psvane. If you can find a pair and squeeze them into your set up, you will not be disappointed. FWIW, I have tried a few sets of the Psvane and Shuguang 181 (grey glass) treasures in several different applications and didn't like them at all. Enjoy the music

I let Ken Rads run a couple days they have come back to life from being dormant all these years. Ken Rad is more relaxed compared to the Shuguang. RCA more relaxed than Ken Rad. I may need to put Shuguang back in to see if memory is right but seem Ken Rad has more weight/body on instruments very natural highs.
 

Again memory may be off but Shuguang may have more solid state highs but I need to try them again. Maybe brighter, thinner, cleaner and faster, maybe lose a little tube magic, but not in a bad way. I play jazz and have a lot of new and old hand hammered ride cymbals and I did notice the Shuguang can make a heavy ride cymbal sound very realistic with weight, like you are there sound. That was the first thing that impressed me with the Shuguang for a modern tube. It’s a toss up between all three. They all do good for what they are and have there place. For an all rounder the Ken Rad is nice. The Shuguang has a more modern sound if my memory is correct. I’m going to put Shuguang back in this weekend and see what happens. I’m just going to enjoy Ken Rads for a while. Then I’m going to try Sylvania vt-231’s and pick one and leave it in for a while.

BEWARE-I spent $750 on 4 Psvane 6SN7GT Globes. All 4 were microphonic!

I first used them in my Atma-Sphere M-60 amps. No problem until I moved them to my A-S MP-1 preamp. I couldn’t believe that my super duper globes could be the cause of LOUD noise but finally traced the noise down to all 4.

@mglik 

The MP-1 preamp is probably so revealing that you need to use noise-tested tubes. 

I’ve never signed up for Ali Express. I don’t like the idea of a Chinese based company having my personal info.

But, this is interesting:

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/33048765598.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail

My Don Sachs preamp uses four 6sn7s. Don supplies them with Shuguang Treasure or WE6sn7plus tubes.  He swears by them.  On his website he describes the many 'holy grail' 6sn7s that he owns and then goes on to explain that the Shuguangs walk away from them all.  That's quite a statement. In my experience, they are excellent tubes. I still have the original tubes supplied with my preamp and have gone through more than 2000 hours on them an counting with not a hitch.

@sandthemall  I spoke with Don when I was shopping for a preamp. There was a 3 month wait at that time. Using Shuguang in both stages of the preamp confirms what I've read, this pre is very revealing and realistic.

I expect many of you will already know all this stuff I'm writing below. Some of you might even have the facts/chronology in your head better than I do. I share it here for those who *might not* have *been there at the time* and for whom it might prove informative.

Regarding the CV-181 terminology used with respect to 6SN7 tubes. Way back when - like a couple years ago when those tubes first came out - every site, every ad I saw for them stated specifically that they CV-181 nomenclature was incorrect and that they should only be regarded as drop-in replacements for 6SN7 tubes. And virtually all ads and sites were scratching their heads at the choice of the CV-181 name for these tubes.

Having said that, the "Black Treasure" CV-181 tubes were very highly regarded. IIRC they were Shuguang branded until Grant Fidelity, in Canada, came of with the Psvane brand name. I think that was the result of collaboration with the marketing folks at Shuguang.

The so-called WE6SN7plus tubes, specifically the ones with the orange metal base and the extremely tall bottle, were very, very highly regarded. After they'd been in production for a while there was, IIRC, a fire at the Shuguang plant and they shut down production.

Another page turned and, apparently, the top engineers who had been involved in the Psvane venture left to form Linlai.

Apparently the Linlai production tubes are well regarded. I have not tried any of them, being content with my old US production 6SN7s and my JJ 300b tubes.

After flipping through all my vintage vt-231’s and others over the last couple weeks I’m back with Shuguang WE plus 6sn7’s in the amp. All had there special sonic signature but the Shuguang’s just have a jack of all trades sound. I feel the Shuguang had the best transparency, refinement and speed out of all the 6sn7’s I tried and not to a small degree. Most important I enjoyed the amp much more once the Shuguang’s were back in the amp. 
 

lowrider57, I know a guy that has a stash of the Shuguang WE plus kt88’s and 6sn7’s. I’m going to buy some of them in the next week or so he is a couple hours away and I’m going to go pick some up. If he has extra’s would you be interested, these are new never been in an amp. He has switched gear and has no need for them.

Allot of the Chinese tubes tend to get noisy within a year, this is my experience with the MP-1. Whilst these Tubes will work in other pre-amps and not show any sign of noise. It will instantly be apprently on the MP-1. So you must feed it good stuff.

MP-1 is so sensitive and revealing it has to be carefully matched and setup. Once this aspect is done right it will go toe to toe to anything costing even 4 times its price tag easily!

Patient is required on the Atma-Sphere Gear to get Proper setup done. Especially the Pre-amps.

Iv borrowed, purchased and sold countless Pre-amps but the MP-1 is a keeper. The Phono Stage alone on this pre-amp will challenge phono stages at any price too.

Whilst sonically it is a marvelous peice of gear, it will reward its owner with years of musical enjoyment. It can be tricky with tubes. Allot of the stuff from china have bad quality control and you can end up with noisy stuff.

@markusthenaimnut  I remember reading about Shuguang closing down a factory. But it seems they are up and running with new production tubes.

From AA 2019...

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=279979

@paulcreed  sorry, I was without internet yesterday. This sounds interesting, I'll PM you when I get home, 

Can anybody recommend quality octal adapters? The last set I bought was not an exact fit for an Atma-sphere amp. The dealer said there is some variation between pin spacing on adapters.

@markusthenaimnut , 

You've got all the correct information. Apparently the Shuguang factory is gone and the company has ceased production.

​

Another page turned and, apparently, the top engineers who had been involved in the Psvane venture left to form Linlai.

Apparently the Linlai production tubes are well regarded.

This advert confirms there are no reliable sources for Shuguang WE6SN7's...

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649729361-shuguang-2-we6sn7-dawning-series/

There are many fakes of these in the marketplace and Shuguang Factory is being rebuilt due to fire so legitimate new ones are not available.

​​

I run the Shuguang WE6CA7 Plus in a Mystere PA11 and really like the tubes performance.  Wish I could get a quad of the 6SN7, but….  They have a pure, un colored sound compared to EL34.  Very nice tubes.

I just acquired a DS preamp that has these tubes.  I was shopping for some NOS RCA, Ken Rads or Sylvania but that has gone to a halt.  These tubes are very transparent, quick, digs deep and musical.  Very good PRAT but oddly at times can sound a bit quick but then evens out again.   Voices sound real but don’t have that “tube halo” and do sound closer to solid state.  At least in my system.