I too will be getting my Apogee's Duetta 2 Sig's rebuilt as well, I have found from friends that the sprague caps are good caps and have been around for many years, but the Auracaps are better and are much smoother in the mid-range, I don't know much about the Multicap PPMFX
but the Spragues and the Multicap's are priced about the same on Parts Express, But the Auracaps are much more, Now lets talk about sound, well The Apogee Ribbons will NEED POWER so I have two Hafler Transnova's on my ribbons in a mono block config, because I don't want to worry about my amps taking a dive when that impedance dips, I also have Acoustats 2+2 , 6600, and spectra's and I have bought many amps to there knees, Because of the dip, so you will have to factor in the burn in time for your caps. Now if you are ok with building your own stand alone crossover boxs with the caps that you are thinking about using you can't go wrong with that approach, just stay on the same value as the original caps are rated for. that would give you the joy of changing out you caps to what type of music you are listening to at the moment, you have to keep in mind that we have a pair of speakers that are many years old and what happens if the suppler of the ribbons stops making them, That is ALWAYS on the back of my mind like my Acoustats which all of the internal transformers and not labeled with part numbers, I hope that you are not paying a Hefty price for this refresh. you can reach out to me in a Email- Mosleygerald11@yahoo.com and I can provide more information you may need. |
Thanks for the info. I’m actually getting mine completely redone by one of Graz’s two U.S trained/authorized shops in the U.S. - Music Technology in Virginia. The other shop is True Sound Works in Nevada. Bill Thalmann @ Music Technology is very skilled and has been refreshing Apogees for over 20 years. Prior to that he was the lead designer at Conrad Johnson and #3 in the company behind the two founders during what many would say is there golden age. These Duettas were originally bought by my dad. He started out with a Counterpoint SA2020 (as I recall) that just didn’t have the needed juice. The base model kept blowing and even the upgraded version wasn’t cutting it. So he moved to a BAT VK-500 with bat pack solid state amp and BAT VK-3i tube preamp with excellent results until I got the speakers from him about 3 years ago. I grew up loving the setup. So, I upgraded and am now running it with a BAT VK-600 with bat pack solid state amp and a BAT VK-6i tube preamp (has more tubes than the VK-3i). It’s a great match with plenty of headroom. Graz recommends the Auracaps while Bill recommends the Multicaps. Bill has installed both over the years and he doesn’t hear much difference between the two. Graz has been not only creating super high quality replacement ribbons for the Apogees since 2001, but he also has been making his own designs improving over the originals for many, many years now (coming out with new models periodically). They get up to $116k and his workshop is in Australia with all of his CNC equipment. I wouldn’t source the parts anywhere else. Apparently there are Asian sources, but they are shady and he has had all kinds of problems with them trying to steal info from him. The rebuild isn’t going to be cheap, but I want it done right and the best quality possible for a lifetime of listening. I’ve got all sorts of information I’ve collected around the speakers since UPS damaged the left channel bass panel (has a buzz at a particular bass frequency) that I’m glad to share as well. Graz links as well as several excellent reviews comparing originals with Graz rebuilds. Cheers! |
I’ll add as well that I’ve never detected any midrange graininess. They have always sounded great throughout the frequency range. I’m listening to Bob Seger at the moment and I’m still astounded by how lively and energetic they sound with incredible imaging and tone/timbre without even a hint of ear fatigue. Hence why I’m so hesitant to recap them. I don’t know if you are aware, but the Duettas are extremely fussy about which speaker cables are used. If you haven’t tried them I recommend finding a pair of Swiss Symo LS4X translucent ribbon, bi-wired speaker cables. They are quite affordable if you can track them down. From what I understand Jason Bloom collaborated with Symo to create cables that were optimal for these speakers. My dad had many conversations directly with Jason in the late 80’s/early 90’s. At one point Jason even asked him to be their marketing manager. He declined because he anticipated they were unfortunately drifting towards insolvency. Once I soon have them refreshed I believe without a doubt they can hold there own with virtually any speakers on the market (current or past) at most any price point. |
Hey that is great!! so it seems like you know what direction you want to go in with your Duettas, I have read great things about Mr Graz and the
improvements to the Duettas. Yeah UPS damages eveything they touch
i would not send such a great speaker through them to be shipped, plus they don’t like to pay insurance claims, Like the old saying go’s " WHEN YOU DEFINITELY HAVE TO GET IT THEIR "DAMAGED" UPS CAN DO IT!!! . I have been trying to find the Swiss Symo LS4X translucent ribbon, bi-wire speaker Cables, but has not had luck and I have heard about them being fussy with other cables, BAT audio is very nice gear and it must have sweet Synergy with the Duettas! I live in the San Francisco so
and there are a lot of audio gathering’s out here (b4 COVID) and sometimes I hear of guys getting rid amps, But it is great to hear you have a history with these beautiful speakers. the pair that I have was at a flea-market and had came from a storage locker sale, and the guy that had them at his stall said they are room dividers!! and people kept walking by them saying how nice of a room divider they were. I don’t know much more about them, But if you can share some info you may have that would be great, How much are you going to invest in your rebuild? b4 you stop. I included my email if you what to send me some info, I want to rebuild the WHOLE SPEAKER. when I got them one of the bass panels had a rip in it and the tweeter on the right side would not play, so they need a full rebuild for shure,I have heard of the guys in Nevada and may send them another email, they did not respond to the first one I sent, I need to know who they use for a shipper and then what are there procedures for sending the set to them, I will build wooden shipping boxes for them. take care my friend :)
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I’ve been researching and cultivating knowledge around these speakers for quite a while. There was a Duetta and a Duetta II Signature Series built by Apogee. The latter was their last model with much better crossovers (there was also a German version called the Duetta Reference that was too hot in the upper frequency, but can easily be corrected). The Duettas go north of 30k on the top end frequency range. They we’re getting a lot of complaints around the frequency range constraints of the originals. The Duetta IIs, aside from the obvious nameplate etched on back binding post plate, are distinct because they have a separate aircraft aluminum stand, not molded and part of the frame like the originals. You really hit a goldmine. Stereophile and many others put these speakers (along with other full range ribbons models Apogee made such as the sub-1Ohm Scintillas, the larger than Duetta Divas and others like the massive flagship Grand) as some of the best speakers ever made regardless of price (always controversial to say of course). A big problem that really forces you to redo your Duettas is the acoustic foam, particularly for the bass ribbons, because the foam they used in those days ultimately breaks down onto a form like sand. It will cause a bass buzz that will only get worse. Graz tested his new foam (not sure if he designed it or sourced it) in the extremely hot Australian outback (I think the Outback, but not important). It will last a lifetime. He invested a lot of money into CNC equipment and is making his ribbons at much higher tolerances than what was available in the late ‘80s. He doesn’t list it on his website, but you’ll also want the wiring clamp kit for the mid/upper frequency narrow ribbons. It hold tension much better and makes it much easier to swap out ribbons in the future while improving the sound. I’ve talked to Rich Murray at True Sound Works. Personally, I was more comfortable working with Bill Thalmann @ Music Technology, but that’s just me. I’m also almost exactly in the middle mileage-wise here in AR. You’re obviously closer to Minden, NV than Sterling, VA. Keep in mind, Graz will only send replacement bass ribbons to one of these two shops in the U.S because it takes a lot of experience to put them in place properly and there is no do-overs without ruining $700 for one speaker’s worth of bass ribbons. I’m also having them repainted by their partner car paint shop for $1,200. Going with a satin semigloss black that I’ve coined “Darth Vader Monoliths”.
Graz shared detailed directions with me on how to build shipping crates that includes a super strong aluminum rectangular frame (should cost around $600 to have someone make them for you). He asked me not to post it on a forum, but I would also want to ask him before sharing it directly with you since he’s been so responsive and great to work with. The biggest thing is the crates cannot flex/twist in transit (even though they should both be strapped together on the same pallet together). I’ve got the original boxes with a strong 2x4 cage around each box. This time I will definitely use a freight company. So much more I can cover, better to field your specific questions, mostly which would be good to post here because I want others to benefit so we can keep Apogees alive and in use (even though there are lots of other Apogees posts floating around including on DIY sites). They are too special to disappear from more people discovery their sublime capabilities! Check out my Virtual System here called “Matt Parker’s System”. There is also a lot of other excellent information I recommend reading in conversations I’ve had with others in the comments section.
You can easily find Graz’ website by doing the search “Apogee Graz”. There’s also a great shootout review between the Duetta models, including a pair rebuilt by a Graz affiliated shop in The Netherlands. Use the search “apogee duetta signature hifi review rebuilt”. Several links come up on top that are all essential reads for you.
Cheers! |
Hey thank you for the info, I will build the boxes myself and will design them with a flex factor in mind, I used to build Giant Radiator boxes for shipping to truck manufactures Like MACK,and will be under a price point of $ 600.00.I have looked at Mr Graz site and Emailed him, I have yet to talk with Mr Rich Murray @ True Sound, when I did reach out to him on his web site and did not get a response that drew up RED FLAGS! with me, Plus when I search for a address on Google Maps, all I saw was mountains with white caps on top 2nd RED FLAG!! I don’t know about you but I have heard of peoples equipment and money disappearing. so if I have to send my product further away to a REAL address that would be fine with me,it would be nice if Mr Graz would teach some speaker rebuilder in California since we have so many parts suppliers to build these speakers, it would make it very profitable for him.Foam suppliers have come a long way from the 80’S and the Chemicals used to make form don’t BREAK DOWN aka FOAM ROT as they use to,I have done some research on these speakers and I do have a price point of what I will be willing to spend for a rebuild and If they are talking CRAZY MONEY to do this I may just set them out in the trash and stick with my Acoustats that I can get panels for, very easily and at a VERY REASONABLE PRICE. I’m not the one to buy SNAKE OIL SPEAKER CABLES AT 6K a pop or cable supports at $ 600.00 a piece. a fool and his money will soon part! . Take care |
I know True Sound Works is legit. I have come across a fair number of Apogee owners over the years that were all raving about the quality of workmanship and were surprised with the improvements across the frequency spectrum from the originals. They even offer replacing the magnets with stronger magnets for more bass and better efficiency (both shops check magnet alignment/strength as part of their rebuilds). I would call them. When I talked to them a while back it went right through to Rich. Graeme (aka Graz) can answer all of your questions as well. Due to time difference you should expect to hear from him within 12 hours. He works with both shops all the time as well. He’s not in it for the money. He’s always had a love for Apogees and is most concerned about quality builds, keeping Apogees alive and in use (including totally new models) and frequently comments on forums where people are giving bad advice. He actually made a very details comment yesterday on a diyaudio forum I commented on re: subpar ribbons coming out of Asia and Germany to other Duetta owners. When these speakers are running at their best and are well matced up with their components they are absolutely marvelous. Every day there are moments when they take me to nirvana with really good music that has great engineering - such as anything from ECM or 2L (Norwegian label). Cheers!
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@gmosley and @parker65310
I have a pair of Apogee Duetta Sigs which I purchased new approximately 30 years ago. I still marvel at how well they sound and I, too am a new fan of BAT - I use a BAT VK 42se preamp and a BAT VK 250 power amp. I have driven the Duettas with many configurations in the past including Forte pre and power amps, Proceed PRE and Bel Canto power amp, including a pair of Ref 1000 monoblocks.
My question, if it is not too personal, is this - how much do you expect to pay for a ribbon rebuild by Bill Thalmann? I have attempted to get in touch with him, but have had no luck. After 30 years of use, I have to believe that my Duettas would benefit by a new ribbon rebuild.
I used to be on the original Apogee forum many years ago when Graz started supplying ribbons and building his own Apogees. We used to exchange Christmas gifts back then - in the form of CD's. He sent me a pair of mid/tweeter ribbons one year along with a great CD another year.
Any info on the rebuild cost would be helpful - Thanks
Richard Moscatelli |
Hi Richard, from scratch you should roughly expect to pay $2,500 for all of the needed ribbons, acoustic foam, front and back socks, and wiring kit (for mid/high ribbons which includes (much improved from original) tension clamps) and Bill’s labor is a flat fee of $2,500. They also have an auto shop they use for painting that typically costs $1,200 (I’m doing a semigloss satin black). The only thing left would be to swap all of the Sprague capacitors which is typically about $1,400 when using caps they recommend (the speakers use a lot of them) and potting the resistors with epoxy. If you need shipping crates built they run $600+ from someone like Navis. Bill Thalmann is super-busy and the best way to reach him is via email at bill@musictechnologydotcom (typed out dot due to Audiogon’s filter). Cheers! |
Parker65310...thank you very much for the detailed information. At least now I have a good idea what to expect should I choose a rebuild.
Richard |
You’re welcome. Feel free to message me privately if preferred. Same goes to anyone else looking for specific info that may not be appropriate for a public forum. No need to track it all down yourself when I’ve already done countless hours of my own research and amassed various top quality sources and articles. |
@parker65310: thanks for the great info. Does the parts cost of $2500 include the bass panels?
How do you like the refreshed Duetta Signatures? I have owned the Duetta Sigs for over 30 years. Fortunately they don't have the dreaded bass buzz, but I may upgrade them.
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Make sure you take into account the equivalent series resistance (ESR) of the original caps. With any speaker but with low impedance speakers especially, changing this without appropriately compensation could be a very big deal.
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Hi @bridge-player, The $2,500 does cover the bass panel parts as well. There is a price list on Graz’ Apogee website ( https://www.apogeeacoustics.com/repairsapogeeribbons.html), but you’ll want to get a quote from him because the front mesh will need to be replaced (not listed in the price list, around $75 for each speaker as I recall - I elected to get the darker than original mesh). Note, he’ll only send the bass ribbons directly to an authorized restorer (Music Technology Group or True Sound Works in the U.S) since most of the time DIY owners run into installation problems that likely ruin the parts. They haven’t been restored/upgraded yet. Bill Thalmann @ Music Technology has a large backlog of Apogee restoration plus the (auto) paint shop he uses to do the work isn’t heated. I just spoke to him last week and it’s looking like he can’t get to mine until the end of summer (I’ll send them to him just before he can start work). Good news is they just finished their new shop. So, he’ll be able to work on multiple Apogee pairs at once. He might be able to get to my speakers (and yours potentially) faster as a result, but he’s not sure right now until he gets his bearings with the new space. |
