we are an atc dealer the 40 a are incredibly life like and when used with a good premp dac creates a truly practical minimalist setup
Dave and Troy
Audio intellect NJ
atc dealer
32 responses Add your response
I had a quick listening session (about an hour) last week with the SCM40 passive. |
Just came to me you might be addressing @audphile1 and not me. In that case; correct, sir. |
OP,the ATC SCM40A is an ACTIVE speaker..The B&W 803 D3 is a PASSIVE speaker.. |
Ran ATC SCM 40A for 3 years, then gifted them to a friend. They are fabulous and reveal each improvement made in front of and to them (Gaia ll footers). They do not like tube preamps IME. Tubes were too slow. They can be a bit merciless with bad recordings. They are not aggressive. Only revealing. Replaced them with ATC SCM 50A. Best of luck. |
I run my SCM40V2’s with a Cary SLP05 with ultimate upgrade and Raytheon VT231’s and CBS Hytron 5692’s (latter in input buffer). I have a hard disagree with use of the passive or active versions with a tube preamp. I replaced my otherwise excellent but hard sounding SCM35’s with these speakers, so 22 years of living with ATC speakers. I think my setup (with a SST Son smp) sounds better than any combo driving these speakers (including ATC electronics). I haven’t heard anything below $10K that matches the passive version, and IMHO if you get the active version, a tube preamp will slightly soften the edge on the sound but will give a better spatial sense of air around the instruments and make the sound more lifelike. |
I add that my amplification setup sounds better than any that I have heard, not better than any available! I bet the Gryphon 333 Diablo would sound amazing if one wanted only solid state amplification (or its little brother), and I bet that an Audio Research Ref 6se and Reference 80S amp would be wonderful for an all tube route! |
Thanks for all the comments. Yes, I'm wanting to change to active speakers. My McIntosh MCD600 CDP has a lovely preamp section that will go out straight to the speakers. What the 803s do really well is imaging and soundstaging. Glad to hear the 40s also do that well. What the 803s do a little much of is the treble. Glad to hear the 40s have a sweeter treble. The 803s are a little light in the bass. Glad to hear the 40s are warmer. Again, thanks for all the helpful information. Any and all further information is much appreciated. |
@tomcarr I'll chime in, as a newcomer to home audio with ATC, I am running the passive SCM40 V2's with a Moon North 761 amp. I spent a few hours at my local dealer listening to the SCM40 actives and passives. The Active versions were driven by the latest ATC preamp/controller. The digital source was the new Moon 681 network streamer DAC (also has a volume control so it can be used to drive amps direct). Spent a decent amount of time getting acquainted with the setup and performance and was really impressed song after song. Midrange coherence was the first thing to stand out to me; so expressive and natural. Big wide and deep sound field that just sounded so right. We switched to the passive version, placing them in the same spots (man those actives are HEAVY!! Like you can't believe how heavy they are in pretty small footprint) which were driven by Moon north 641 integrated amp (same Moon dac as source). Repeated the same tracks and then some more. Song after song I was really enjoying myself and that internal audio voice "buy these now" was whispering to me. At home I have the next level up in the moon north line, the 741 and 791. There was a definite synergy present with the simaudio gear and the ATC passives, we all heard it, and were all pretty blown away. I think I do agree about the sweet treble and warmish tone. I think however, to me, it's actually real sounding, not a coloration. I'm guessing it's the result of the seamless integration of the truly one-of-a kind ATC soft dome midrange and the woofer in the sealed cabinet design. The midband energy launches out and you can hear the tone of strings, bass lines, etc. The energy just passes through in a really compelling way. For me, this is new information. I've had tons of speakers passing through my quarters over the years, and there is definitely something to these ATCs that often just grabs me and carries me away in the musical energy. Some of my favorite speakers to pass through here are Harbeths. I think the ATC's embrace what Harbeth gets so right in the midrange and builds on that at both ends of the spectrum. I think you will be very impressed with the active versions - I might have just walked away with those but I am still enamored with power amps, and I really like what the 761 brings to the table and there is no way I can part with this amp yet. It's good to read accounts of ATC active users running them with various line stages and tuning them to one's personally subjective appreciation. Good luck and let us know what you decide! |
@dpac996 Thank you for the wonderful response! I can understand why you got the passive versions. If I had that amp I would do the same thing! Just need to sell the 803s... |
I have to add to @dpac996 that it isn't just the integration of the ATC drivers, it's that they are all designed to achieve low distortion reproduction-this is NOT what most transducer designers aim for. Low Distortion Driver Units sound simple and obvious but it's truly a rubik's cube of objectives. For example, many performance attributes depend on other attributes and you cannot have all of them- you must choose. For example, there is a clear link between efficiency and LF performance in a driver: want more efficiency? Expect less bass- and vice versa. Low distortion requires very large motors (magnet structures) to exert more control over driver motion. These larger motor structures are very expensive to make and so not big sellers to speaker manufacturers who buy a lot of drivers. Because they don't sell well OEM, they are almost impossible to find and when you do they are 2 or 3 times the price of much more common cheaper drivers. Almost no one makes their own drivers anymore; years ago everyone made their own. ATC still makes all their own drivers in house in their own UK factory and doesn't sell any drivers OEM anymore (even though they began as an OEM manufacturer). This is their primary advantage. A good example is the KEF story, who was one of the first to actively research and design/build their own drivers. One well know product they designed and built drivers for was the famed LS3/5a, the "BBC Monitor", supplied as a driver/crossover kit to various different [British] manufacturers who were licensed by BBC to produce this speaker for the BBC. So all of the early LS3/5a designs had KEF drivers and crossover inside, with no reference to KEF on the outside. Harbeth, Chartwell, Spendor and many more all used KEF drivers for their BBC speakers. BBC would license two manufacturers per year for these, which is why there were so many different brands of"BBC monitors". Some have even claimed some unique ownership of this design when it was really all KEF. Most speaker makers today don't build their own drivers, they buy them,. Drivers require expensive employees and equipment to build and most manufacturers don't have enough sales to support a driver factory. So finding a low distortion driver on the OEM market like ATC is impossible-there too much price pressure to make enough money building/selling them to support it and ATC used multiple design innovations that are extremely difficult to copy. ( a dual suspension mid dome for example that is designed to work between 380Hz and 3500Hz). High power drivers are unique too and yes, they are readily available OEM because the live sound speaker market is extensive and much larger than hi fi in sales. The most popular drivers in hi fi are low cost ones that don't break but are usually not at the bleeding edge of performance. Companies like Peerless, SEAS and Focal (and MANY others around the world) sell hundreds of thousands of drivers to all kinds of different speaker builders. More often than not the same drivers are sold to multiple manufacturers. So the point to all this is the real secret to ATC is they "build their own" low distortion drivers which are properly integrated and account for a big portion of why they sound "different". A very common reaction to ATC is "wow, I hear stuff Ive never heard before" which is a direct response to hearing low distortion for the first time. This is what makes ATC popular in studio use, where it's a huge advantage to hear things others miss.
Brad |
@lonemountain yep that's what I meant :) Thanks for the details. The more I learn about the engineering behind ATC, the greater is my appreciation for them. Cheers |
@lonemountain Wow! Thank you for the information! Now I'm really worked up! |
I aspire to own some SCM40a's, but am very happy with my SCM19 v2's, purchased from @lonemountain here in Vegas. I have heard the SCM40's with the ATC integrated amp powering them (100wpc). Sublime. I power my SCM19 v2's w/a McIntosh MA-252 and I am filling a large space. I can play loud, but it taxes the little McIntosh's 100wpc (which seem to be less robust than the 100w in the ATC integrated amp).
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Good post and insights on ATC speakers and their high quality drivers. However:
The takeaway with high efficiency in conjunction with LF performance (i.e.: extension) isn’t that the latter aspect can’t be had, but that it requires large size - given of course proper implementation with the right type of driver mated to its intended cab design and tuning. Hofmann’s Iron Law, as a premise, merely states that you can’t have high eff. as well as LF extension from a small size factor, but I’m guessing to many audiophiles the general deduction is being made that high eff. precludes deep bass simply because most don’t have, or won’t make room for very large size subs and the designs they reflect. In other words: large size isn’t even considered as a viable option. Some believe ATC speakers to be on the "light" side in the bass area, whereas I find they provide for a more natural and musically integrated bass response, a trait they share with higher eff. bass systems - no doubt from a common outset of low distortion; ATC achieves this in particular by using underhung voice coils with massive motors, whereas high eff. bass systems have low distortion in the bass not least due to prodigious headroom within a given SPL range (also from designs with massive motor force, in addition to very high power handling), which is to say: less woofer excursion = lower distortion. As Roy Gregory puts it in his review of the Göbel Audio Divin Noblesse speakers:
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I've had my ATC SCM40s(V2 Passive) for around 18 months. I first had them driven by Marantz Model 30, then by a Heaven 11 Billie Mkii. Recently I've added an Atoll AM200 power amp (120w) and use the Billie as pre-amp. I guess the bass produced is partly room dependent, but in a modestly sized room like mine which is partly treated, I've stopped using my sub as there's no need. Acoustic bass/double bass is wonderfully reproduced, to the point you can feel it in your gut but with no bloat. Since I've added tubes by way of the Billie, especially now in pre-amp mode, and the gutsy Atoll power amp (dual-mono), which really takes control of the ATCs, for me this is a match made in heaven (excuse the pun 😊) |
A few days ago I came to the realization the only complaint I have with my 803 D3s was a somewhat strident treble. So I did the stupidly simple task of reducing toe-in of about 30* to zero (speakers are aimed straight ahead). Viola! Treble glare gone! Now sounds coherent from bottom to top. To me, sounds wonderful. Happy camper. Think I'll keep em. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. |
The post above is a reat example of how speakers (really most drivers) sound different off axis. This is almsot a universal, but there are some drivers that are better than others. Since this is a post about SCM40A, the mid dome driver and the new HF dome driver are specifically designed to sound nearly the same on and off axis - to a point. Nothing is perfect. Some of the driver designs you think would be better are actually worse! Brad |
