Atma-Sphere Class D… Amazing

The designer did use measurements, but I’m sure he didn’t  use just the measurements that are normally published in the manufacturer spec sheet.

@kuribo 

   Your opinion is the same Argument you use. It’s your opinion. You just keep this circular conversation going. I think it’s been covered. But when people keep on a circular conversation it’s about ego. I keep saying this opinion of yours has been cover over and over again. Let’s move on to real world opinions as what the spirit of the thread is about. 

I don't know why measurements were even brought up if it doesn't have anything to do with opinion, then why bring it up?

This is a never ending tactic - conflate comments in support of measurements as another tool to evaluate audio gear with their sole use in evaluating audio gear.

I have said repeatedly that measurements are useful to me in evaluating products as far as engineering, performance, suitability in my system vis a vis other components, etc. are concerned. I have also said repeatedly that the ultimate arbiter is how the equipment sounds in my system in my room. Yet over and over I hear the comments about how "I learned 50 years ago that measurements have nothing to do with the sound", "measurements are useless in determining how something will sounds", "go to ASR", blah blah blah. I can not help but conclude that several posters here have a reading comprehension deficiency and/or a fear and lack of understanding of things numerical and technical.

By the way, the designer of this class d amp surely used measurements to develop and engineer this amp. He also, based on comments he has made elsewhere, believes that measurements CAN indicate how an amp may sound, contrary to all those here who claim otherwise. Measurements and science play a crucial role in the design and development of audio products. They can be, if understood and properly interpreted, a very useful tool. BUT NOT THE ONLY TOOL.

@pstores 

I can see you have a deeply rooted need for affirmation. Does outside confirmation from others make the amps sounds better to you? If people say they don't like them, does that make you like them less?

 

I don't know why measurements were even brought up if it doesn't have anything to do with opinion, then why bring it up?

@pstores 

You are correct and folks that have pursued the best sound possible for decades… while may have somewhat different tastes will completely agree with you. If @kuribo likes tinny dead sound, like he said… it’s up to him. But, for folks without a lot of experience and that want a system that has an emotional connection with the user that mirrors real music, then specifications are not going to get you there. I learned this quickly over fifty years ago.

@kuribo 

  You do realize this is a circular conversation you don’t have to keep repeating right? Let’s move on the more reviews and view points others that have heard these amps have to say. I am interested in what others that have actually listen to them. See if they are the same, close or opposite my opinions. It’s nice to hear others experiences in their systems. And what systems they have. I am really interested in Tinears thoughts. As his system will be extremely revealing.

Like I said we all can’t be wrong. It’s not just my opinion. But some of the best spec’d gear sounds terrible. Anyway you slice it. Just not my opinion. At the end of the day…. It’s how does it sound when the switch is flipped. That’s truly the end game. At that point spec’s don’t mean squat. I have seen some specs from these amps. But not measured ones. And not to worried about that. As they eclipse any amp under $10,000 I’ve had in my system. I can’t say under $16,0000 yet because I haven’t been able to put the Pass Labs XA60.8 or a couple others. 
  And yes these are just my opinions.

First of all, there is no right or wrong, they are opinions, not facts. It doesn't matter if it isn't just your opinion. There isn't any strength in numbers when it comes to opinions- why? because there is NO RIGHT OR WRONG! Doesn't matter how many people agree with you- there will always be those who don't.

Yes, again, they are just your opinions. Get over the need to be "right". It doesn't matter how many more expensive amps you've had, how many class d or other amps you have tried, how many of your friends like them, how many magazines praise them, if your wife likes them, your neighbor's dog likes them, etc. It doesn't mean someone won't dislike them, and that is perfectly fine. You don't have to justify your preferences. They could be $99 Chinese clones and if you said they sounded the best in your system and beat out $100,000 amps, and all your friends hated them, it still doesn't matter. It still isn't "right" or "wrong". It's a personal preference, that's it.

 

Like I said we all can’t be wrong. It’s not just my opinion. But some of the best spec’d gear sounds terrible. Anyway you slice it. Just not my opinion. At the end of the day…. It’s how does it sounds when the switch is flipped. That’s truly the end game. At that point spec’s don’t mean squat. I have seen some specs from these amps. And am not to worried about that. As they eclipse any amp under $10,000 I’ve had in my system. I can’t say under $16,0000 yet because I haven’t been able to put the Pass Labs XA60.8 or a couple others.
And yes these are just my opinions.

@pstores

40 years ago I learned you don’t listen to specs and measurements. Some of the best spec’ed gear sounds sterile, dry and lifeless.

Again, that’s your experience and your opinion. Some of the best spec’ed gear sounds anything but sterile, dry, and lifeless to others, so again, there is no universal truth to your statement, it’s just more opinion. It means nothing. Who cares how many people like something? Doesn’t mean anything to me. Because 1 billion people like ketchup does it mean I will? No, I don’t like ketchup. When it comes to personal preferences, no, professional reviews, consumer reviews, or any other sort addressing subjective matters of taste don’t have to mean anything and can never answer the ultimate question on a personal level- will I like it in my system in my room?

If you like it, that's really all that should matter to you. Whether or not other people share your opinion is not something you should be concerned about. Tastes differ, that's a fact.

@twoleftears

40 years ago I learned you don’t listen to specs and measurements. Some of the best spec’ed gear sounds sterile, dry and lifeless. Try listening with your ears and then look at specs. Being there has been so many reviews. And quite a few regular people like me have posted their thoughts one what they heard. All with pretty respectable systems. None have said anything negative. Actually all so far very positive. Professional and Consumer reviews. Should mean something. Yes all subjective. But one common view point. So points to a common outcome. It’s like IT people 1’s and 0’s are always 1’s and 0’s. You can’t improve on that. Well it seems you can. DAC’s and Class D’s prove that everyday.

@noske I was referring to independent measurements, such as those performed by John Atkinson for Stereophile. Should have made that clearer.

@ricevs When you take your ego sword out and start swinging, you are not in a high vibration.....Do you love yourself, do you love me? 
 

I dunno about others on this esteemed audio forum , but I'm sure something could be arranged elsewhere.

@tinear123,

   Very very nice system…..  Can’t wait to hear your take. Those Coincident Amps are one of my Favorite 300b and with the right speakers are simply awesome. 
 

    I wasn’t able to put the amps against the XA 60.8’s today. Friend had an emergency. But I did spend a few hours at the Dealer. He really enjoyed them. He said he was shocked how dynamic they are and how they grabbed the Magnepans. They had total control over a speaker the dips to 2 ohms and measures out 84.5 db . Magnepan states 86 db… Some HIFI reviews state actual specs around 85. He said most 100 watt amps can’t do that. The soundstage was yuge. Bass was perfect. Accurate and clear. Pianos crisp and real. Cymbals sparkle and brushes defined. The music was accurate and true to all aspects. Which in itself is very impressive. The Maggie’s weren’t in the room. You couldn’t pinpoint them across the entire back of the room. Am sure if they were box type traditional speakers you’d clearly hear one over the other as you transverse the back of the room. These are very transparent and organic at the same time. Not bright on Maggie’s at all. Or any harsh leading edges. The attack and decay was what it should be as well. It just doesn’t do anything offensive or bad. Just for fun I cranked them up to see if I could shake the amps. They never broke a sweat. Never got warm, Never strained to control the Maggie’s. And they rocked the house. 

 

@ricevs

No fighting for turf going on here, just pointing out your very poor form in posts. Your very poor form in making recommendations when you havent heard what you are recommending.

I post info to inform and serve......why so aggressive in response? If you don’t like my info, just ignore it. When you take your ego sword out and start swinging, you are not in a high vibration.....Do you love yourself, do you love me? We are the same. I have info that some people find worthwhile. If you do not find my info worthwhile.....then that is fine......but why FIGHT about it? Have I said a bad word against anyone? Is this a band of fan boys defending their turf? Please look in the mirror. There is no turf.....there is no one that owns a thread. Everything can be said by anyone. Threads meander all over the place.....and they should, as that is how we learn stufff. More opinons (especially by people who have listened to stuff)....the better. Of course, the forum rules apply.....and to everyone.

Have a blessed weekend.

@tinear123 Just popped the lid as I do on everything according to my wife and since I'm an engineer and do tend to disassemble everything she is right.   

I always enjoy a double entendre.   Very dry humour.

Oh, wait, this is an American forum.  My mistake.

@ricevs Here is another class D amp that will be really good when it hits the street

Yeah, really interesting dude, on a thread about Ralph’s class D amps or any similar (??) Ganfet in production like AGD.

Some here and elsewhere may wish for you to hit the street. No, I don’t know what that means, either, but I’m guessing its like falling over and hitting your head on the gravel.

Just popped the lid as I do on everything according to my wife and since I'm an engineer and do tend to disassemble everything she is right.   

Reading through this thread is kind of amusing. You have some here staying on topic and others who nit pick statements and put their spin on them from some self anointed higher ground when in fact, it's just sophistry for the purpose of getting their spin out there enough times, thinking it will sink in and become conventional wisdom.

It's just their opinion, hiding behind "facts".

All the best,
Nonoise

@tinear123

Thanks for posting the pics. How are you enjoying the amps? Did you pop the lids so that you could superglue the trannies? LOL.

@ghasley 

Fear has nothing to do with it. I've explained why it is irrelevant. I would hope that you would have the grace to leave it at that.

@tinear123 Nice. And thank you for your observations.

@ricevs 

The post above is pure chickenshyt. That is such poor form to pimp yet another product you have yet to hear.

Your love, happiness and peace schtick is just a cover for you to advance your passive-aggressive biases. #nocredibility #asrfanboy

@kuribo Like I said...btw you get to run your mouth and speculate, postulate, and well .....yes it rhymes. 

@kuribo 

DIY? Don't be afraid to list your gear. Everyone benefits.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

The next comment will likely get deleted but I once inquired about potentially purchasing Audiogon. All I would do differently is moderate the forum and make it virtually impossible for the spam posts and scam listings. You want to partner up? Post about counterfeit products? One warning and then banned. Join today and want to sell something? Escrow funds until both parties consent. Post about politics? One warning, then penalty box.

OK I have the Atma-Sphere-D's in my system and have started listening.  "Subjective" report out later but for now some pix and a description of my humble system. The system sounds much more complex in words that it actually is.

Speakers: 1) BD-design horns @ 112dB sensitivity (utilizing the BMS-4592ND coaxial compression drivers w/ custom phase plugs) FYI I have a pair of the new Celestion Axi2050 drivers coming mid-Oct to check out).  Both the BMS and Clelstion have roughly the same frequency response in my horns of ~300Hz-21kHz. 2) The base cabinets are the BD-design Compact Reference w/ 15" drivers running from 38Hz-800Hz.  3)Not shown in the picture is an SVS-16-Ultra for ~15Hz-40Hz.  NOTE: in the pic you will see a sub but that is just part of my JBL soundbar and is only used for TV.

Amplifiers: 1) Coincident Frankenstein Mk-2 300B monoblocks driving the horns (shown sitting in the floor) OR the Atma-Sphere-D's on top of the cabinet where the 300B's normally sit. 2) Crown-XLi-1500 driving the base cabinets utilizing a mini-DSP for xover & volume matching duties. 

Preamp: Don Sachs custom 

Dac: Holo Audio May-KTE

Streamer: Innous Mini-Mk3 + LPS power supply

Cables: Grover Huffman end to end

Here is another class D amp that will be really good when it hits the street (in two to three months):

The New DIY amp from Hypex called the Nilai 500 DIY.  This is Hypex's latest module and will be available for DIY only.  The measurements are as good as it gets and makes Kuribo drool....he he

The modules are $350 each and the new power supply for it is $250.  Mono block kits (including chassis and all hardware and wiring) will be $850 each plus paypal, duty and shipping.....so less than $2K delivered.  Anyone with a screwdriver and soldering gun can have them up and working in a few hours.  A stereo amp will be $1225 plus paypal, shipping and duty.

There is an thread on ASR for those that want to know more.  Completely discrete front end circuit and completely discrete built in regulators.  Good Wima caps on the output filter.  500 watts into 4 ohms.

Another Class D winner!  How will this less than half price thing sound against the Atmasphere? 

@jerryg123

Possibly, or maybe avoids answering their questions. Hard to say, isn’t it? Maybe letting him speak for himself rather than speculating or making unsupported assumptions would be the prudent course to take.

Guess he ignores some folks. 

@juanmanuelfangioii

No reason to drop him a line or to go to another forum. His amp is the topic of discussion in this thread and he has participated. No reason to not direct questions regarding his product in a thread about his amp to him here. But thanks for the suggestion.

@kuribo then drop Ralph a line or go over to whatsbestforum.com where there are several manufacturers posting. Bet they tear you up. 
 

@twoleftears ~try ASR for size.... a happy AGD owner (OMG! also no measurements).

You own AGD and have not even looked at the website where a few graphs are provided like FFT, square wave and a couple other things (measurements) are provided.

Also the product manual.

In other circumstances I’d have enjoyed your considered opinion as you are an owner, but that lost me a bit.

I am a little disappointed that Ralph does not supply similar information.  No way am I gunna buy anything without these pretty basic fast facts.

@ghasley 

thanks for the link. I would like to hear specifics from Ralph on the benefits and advantages of his inventions as they pertain to his class d audio amp.

My set-up has no informative value or relevance to anyone other than myself. I see no useful purpose in sharing it. Sorry.

@kuribo 

i found five patents granted to Ralph...the link is below. What is your setup and have you considered listing your system in the section provided?

@juanmanuelfangioii

I haven’t put Ralph down, I have said I would like to see measurements and hear about his patent, design, value proposition, etc. All very fair game for a $5000 piece of equipment. Besides, he’s more than capable of speaking for himself and hardly needs you or anyone else to defend him.

Admiration is based on a subjective assessment, so no, it really isn't possible to admire objectively. I have given a rationale for my dislike of certain amp designs. Perhaps you need to reread my criticism of these amps to see than in fact I have criticized their out of date design which results in a load variant frequency response. That is objective fact.

Yes, I have put down some amps that frankly are more a marketing scam than state of the art engineering. I give praise where praise is due. Orchard is an excellent example.

@twoleftears

"Between Ralph’s refutation of ricevs’s pointless proposed modifications, and the Cook’s Tour of the inside of the amp that he gives in the San Francisco video (posted somewhere above), there’s plenty of technical information out there. If you can’t accept that they sound good without seeing a suite of measurements, then you’re in the wrong forum"

Sorry, there has been precious little discussion of technical side of this amp, none of which answers the questions or addresses the issues I put forth earlier.

And no, I can’t accept that they sound good without hearing them myself with my equipment and my room. I have made it clear, repeatedly, that I am neither interested in, nor place any value, on the subjective impressions of others using the amp in their system and room. Perhaps you missed that the first 12 times. I would like to see the measurements to see how it performs compared to state of the art class d amp designs available from Hypex, Purifi, and Orchard- measurements show how well it does what an amp is made for: taking a small signal and making it large. I would like to hear more about the patent and why I should consider this amp at 3 times the price of current state of the art amps, among other things. No, measurements will not tell me if I find it pleasing to listen to but they will tell me things that are important to MY evaluation. I don’t need your permission nor approval to form my opinions.



 

@kuribo Make an effort! Between Ralph’s refutation of ricevs’s pointless proposed modifications, and the Cook’s Tour of the inside of the amp that he gives in the San Francisco video (posted somewhere above), there’s plenty of technical information out there. If you can’t accept that they sound good without seeing a suite of measurements, then you’re in the wrong forum--try ASR for size.

~ a happy AGD owner (OMG! also no measurements).

@kuribo maybe crush was harsh. All you have done here is put Ralph’s design down. Praising Orchard and belittling every other amplifier design hardly makes you objective in you admirations. Not shallow just facts from these pages.

As ghasley said start a thread or go for a walk. I am doing the latter I have a lunch date. 

I will be giving Bruno's Ncore stuff a shot next week. Have a Pharaoh II waiting for me when i get home on Sunday. 

See how it fares against my other gear. Has a tube pre and hope it has some soul as such.

@kuribo 

Start a thread or comment on Atmasphere. 

@juanmanuelfangioii 

The fact is I have praised other class d amps as well designed- Orchard for one. I respect and admire good engineering and state of the art results regardless of the name attached. Your efforts to characterize my admiration as some sort of personality worship are immature and show you to be a shallow person not worthy of consideration.

 

@kuribo has a crush on Bruno and any other designer, engineer is an abomination in his eyes. The only time he posts is when people are praising a product that is not  made by his boy Bruno. Then his energy is spent slamming it when he knows nothing of it.

Ralph stays above the fray and continues to sell his products and gains a larger following in spite of Kuribo.

I have personally owned Purify equipped Integrated and it was very bland, soulless,  uninspiring. Guess that is why there is so many of these units for sale here and at USAM. 
 

Kuribo you are entitled to your opinions and I chose to use a spec sheet as only one leg of the decision process, the most important being how a piece will sound in my system paired with the equipment I already own. Often the spec sheet looses.

This is more often than not, an emotional process and the music has to touch your soul. Data be dammed. 

@pstores

Sure, I could look up the patent, or the designer could explain it himself and provide his take on what problem it was designed to solve and why.

With all due respect, while your experience with a wide variety of amps is impressive on its face, all it really means to me is that you have tried a wide variety of amps. I can perhaps assume you are confident in your choice based on that wide audition experience. Your preferences and experiences can not be extrapolated to predict my own, as such, they are useless to me and others in that regard.

I have read and watched the interviews and understand the why- I am more interested in the how. There are many traditional tube amp companies who have seen the future and are now marketing class d amps. Not hard to understand the why.

@kuribo 

  Watch some of Ralph’s interviews and he pretty much lays it out why the new adventure. 

@kuribo 

    You can look up the patent pretty easily. And I would say from a consumer that has had most of those amps in my own system. They quality of the Sonic Characters (soundstage, details, realism, engaging, not bright or harsh, transparency etc) puts them above all others I’ve had in my system. If you read up some posts you’ll see the class d as well as others I’ve owned or had in my system for demo. I have not found any Class D that I liked till these came along. JMHO…

I really don’t care what others think of the sound of these amps, regardless of how many owners praise them- there are probably billions of people who love ketchup and yet I am not a fan.

I would like to learn more about the engineering and design of these amps. It has been said that there was a patent awarded for some aspect of the design- I would like to know more about exactly what was patented. I would like to see the measurements and wonder why they haven’t been published yet when this product has been years in the making- it takes very little time to upload a few files. I would like to hear the designer’s take on how his class d design differs from those of Hypex and Purifi and at 3 to 4 times the price, what they offer over the Hypex and Purifi products that makes them worth the considerable difference. I would like to know why he decided to design his own class d modules, especially in light of the fact that it is no trivial matter and a completely different task than designing a tube amp....I would like to know why the designer choose GaNfets over standard fets and what advantages he believes they offer at his operating frequency over standard fets....

@ghasley 

The problem with those who are certain they know the “secret” to something is the fact that they just can’t stand keeping it to themselves.

+1

Beautifully put.

Charles

@pstores 

Indeed. Its your thread and for someone to question Ralph’s engineering and design chops from left field is questionable. Glad you started it and I’ve never seen anyone question Ralph’s design choices. Atmasphere may or may not be someone’s preference but it absolutely exceptionally well made and designed. Best.

@ghasley 

+10 hopefully we can get back to the amps and not BS….  Opinions are just that. Opinions. And everything in Audio is subjective. But when so many that have heard the amps actually…. Have nothing bad to say about them. I have only heard great things from other owners. And people that have heard them at other venues.