i don't know if i can find my old post - its a needle in the haystack. You might search on my user name. But most of it is blocking and tackling - clean power, clean grounds, isolation, keeping nosy digital devices away from sensitive analog ones, keeping the processing distributed (just like Roon recommends), etc.
That said, Roon is a frustratingly complex, but very powerful streaming solution. It is sold as a full server (Nucleus) or as software that you cna load on your computer or build a dedicated server as I did - but in the end, its a streaming server with vastly more capabilities than anything you can buy from "fill in the blank". In fact some high end servers ARE in fact Roon, embedded.
Unlike most streaming servers you can serve multiple independent zones (rooms, systems), or synchronize them - AND control the timing priority for those synched zones. For each, with enough computer power, you can correct for room abnormalities, although this is a needlessly difficult process (like much of Roon IMO).
I did look at my own history... and can't find the needle int he haystack. Sorry.
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itsjustme
Sorry went by what I was told about Roon should have read it for myself if you could post a link for the post so I can read it
thanks for the good comments on my system |
The problem is PCs are simply not created with noise reduction and power conditioning in mind. Correct. Which is why i advocate simply isolating it and creating a dedicated low noise power supply on the "clean"side and allowing the Mac streamer to be dirty. trying to fix the computer will have diminishing returns (but running of battery makes a huge difference, with lots of limitations). This is why i wanted to know precisely what you tried and didn't. NUCs are actually quite good if dedicated and with dedicated,and split/isolated power. RPis make good bridges (but start with the Pi4 or you will fight a lot of architectural issues). I mean, have you looked at what's inside the box of many streamers? Often a NUC or a Pi (as embedded). |
I was an IT guy with a real passion for high end audio. Most of this experimentation I did over a period of ten years. If I had a good memory and an interest I could reconstruct all the fiddling I did. I have not either. But dealing with jitter (hence using a USB DAC that re-timed the bit stream), shutting down all other processes, heavy power conditioning… etc we’re all stuff I did. Still in comparison to a good streamer it was totally inadequate. I am sure given the amount of money i spent trying to tweak my pc based systems I could have bought a good streamer and had better sound much sooner. Today, even more so, since streamers are so much more available. Sorry, that is about as deep into the weeds as I want to get, sounds like you would like a more technical answer… once I have an epiphany like I did with streamers I leave the past go and move on.
I believe if you really spent an incredible amount of time at this futzing around you could get close to a low end streamer… yes. That is why I spent so much time at it… to save money. The problem is PCs are simply not created with noise reduction and power conditioning in mind. A good streamer is built from the ground up with that in mind.
If you enjoy futzing around with NUCs and different components… that is great. What ever you enjoy. I used to enjoy evaluating the sound of interconnects and cables. But for a normal folks looking for as good of sound reproduction as they can get within there budget then a streamer is likely to be the path to take. Unfortunately, really high end sound is expensive. Cheaper today than it was twenty years ago. Just trying to be helpful to most folks here. When you have some time, go borrow a good quality streamer from a dealer. |
I did all sorts of software and format changes. I doubt there was much I
didn’t try. Bought a bunch of high res files. Tried from the MacBook,
USB storage, network storage. All sorts of interconnects. The more I
think back the more stuff I realized I tried. But none of this is very specific and none addresses the ground isolation, jitter or processor load (which generates noise) which are the critical factors to optimize. I suspect that is all your streamers do - all the necessary EE blocking and tackling. But hat can all be done to Roon running on NUC with a RPi bridge - with much effort. Or similarly, some can be addressed with a Laptop especially (since they can run on battery). That's what I'm trying to understand - and i think is good learning for other starting down the path. Throwing money at it certainly can solve the problem, but takes, well, a pile of money. |
I worked with streaming on two fronts for about fifteen years. My main system and what eventually became my library headphone system. See my systems by clicking on my user ID.
During this time I used many different software and storage combos on my headphone system. I settled on Ayre QB-9 DAC… lots of power conditioning and a $500 USB cable that finally got some real magic out of the system. I had and have a number of high end headphones. I use high quality Woo headphone amps.
On my main system I was running a Sim Moon 650D DAC with a Sim Moon 820 power supply. I used an MacBook that I carefully unplugged when using as a server. I have since upgraded this whole system in a big way. The Aurender W20se streamer seemed expensive until i turned it on and listened. Finally some competition with vinyl.
I did all sorts of software and format changes. I doubt there was much I didn’t try. Bought a bunch of high res files. Tried from the MacBook, USB storage, network storage. All sorts of interconnects. The more I think back the more stuff I realized I tried.
Anyway, I didn’t get real audiophile quality sound until I finally broke down and got dedicated streamers. I was resistant… “it’s only a PC in a different box”, why should I spend so much money? The difference was profound. |
@ghdprentice, can you say more? I clearly had a different experience, and its unclear what steps you took to get good sound out of a "macbook and/or PC". Further, mac books and PCs are significantly different -- starting with, until very, very recently PCs didn't even support USB high res audio profile 2. And, while there is huge variation, their power supplies are much noisier. Any SMPS is bad, but Apple's are typically "less bad". The best procedure is to run them off battery for critical listening. Will a dedicated server with a dedicated set of isolated LPS bet better? Sure - just like i built for Roon. Did you use Bitperfect (you really need to, and its 10 bucks). And the list goes on. Without that your data point is useful o you, but not very valid as a learning point for others. Plus I'd like o now why the discrepancy.
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I streamed off a MacBook and / or a PC for years. The sound was, in retrospect terrible. Until I got a dedicated streamer (Auralic Aries first then Aurender) the sound was without a quiet background (very high noise floor), dynamic, or natural sound. I would constantly flipping from one track to another (in retrospect trying to find something that sounded good). When I swapped to a great streamer, my surfing ended, each tune was captivating… even stuff I normally would not like. |
Roon is an interface has nothing to do with sound quality totally incorrect. Roon is a 1) server, 2) streamer, 3) multi-room and network streamer with its own protocol, 4) upsampling DSP, 5) MQA first unfold algorithm, 6) timing and bit depth adjustment device, ..... How far do i need to continue. Totally, completely, off base. Sorry to be blunt to the point of rude, but this is really misinformation. And Roon provides a lot of options to minimize network impacts, optimize timing, tune for rooms, etc. I shoudl add i have no commercial affiliation with Roon expect that i was an early adopter, and often feel like a beat tester. Its a work-in-progress. Nice system though Tom. Thumbs up on your choices, from what i can see. 2nd edit: if interested, i was asked, and wrote, a long post on how to get the best sound out of Roon in a digital audio thread not long ago. It extended beyond Roon proper to bridge and USB interfacing (e.g.: lots of ground and power supply isolation) to get the best sound. Remember that Pulse Amplitude Modulation is in effect a cartesian coordinate mapping of analog sound and the X (time) domain is just as important as the Y (volume/bits) domain. |
Roon is an interface has nothing to do with sound quality |
I don’t know much about the aurender, but i have streamed from itunes/bitperfect and (i cant recall the name) on my Macbook pro, and for years i have used Roon on a dedicated server. All three outperformed the CD player to the same DAC(s).
I will point out that Roon offers a number of advantages; since i have rarely used anything else in the last tow years, i can say how much they impact the sound - but the content difference is startling ( I have a love/hate relationship with Roon)
But here’s are the two things:
One -- there will be differences, based on implementation (hardware, powering, grounding, ...)
Two: on the other hand, if the software plays the music back bit perfect, you can get identical results.
Why? two critical factors in digital are magnitude and timing. Timing is the harder of the two since it is quasi analog. (read my blog on SonogyResearch if you want more). And timing is determined by the receiving DAC, but compromised by the player’s signal from which it must be derived. I admit there are some details deep down that i cannot explain. yet :-)
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tomic601
Hope all is well with you and yours
I have never looked back on any decision on Aesthetix or Vandersteen just moving up the lines
Enjoy the Music
Tom |
@tomstruck you will love the Pandora. I am 7 years in with no real urge to change, except maybe Eclipse…..maybe… |
@audioman58, I agree that DAC Streamer combinations, like DCS, Bricasti, etc. offer less steps and cables. The use of an Ethernet cable offers many advantages including its sound quality. For me, the biggest issue is the interface used to access QoBuz, etc. Do these DAC streamers offer a connection to my stored CD's?
My Aurender N20 Music Server stores my CD albums on an internal solid state hard drive and enables me to select from stored CD's, QoBuz and Internet radio stations. For me, the big plus is the Aurender Conductor App that provides easy access to all my musical sources including the wonderful QoBuz Playlists.
I sometimes use MConnect on my Bricasti M21 DAC and it works fine. I am not fan of the MConnect interface and find it hard to use. I much prefer using the Aurender Conductor App. I briefly experimented with ROON but did not like it.
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I have N10 with Codex big improvement over the 100s my next move will be to upgrade the DAC to Aesthetix Pandora I rather have separate streamer and DAC each plays big roll in SQ
Enjoy the Music
Tom |
There is a big evolution going to dac streamer combination which when properly implemented like DCS, Bricasti , and others their is less steps and 2 less cables all through Ethernet ,and sounds great. |
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hgeifman
Thanks! I'm not the OP, but have been looking at the N10 and and N20, W is out of reach for now. |
Yes. +Absolutely. Several years ago, I brought 3 albums to my dealer and listened on the Aurender N100h Music Server. After 20 minutes of listening, I felt it sounded compressed, not natural and I did not like it (my opinion).
I then played the same 3 albums on the Aurender N10 for 30 minutes. The sound quality was amazing. The music was clearer, had more bass, had more air and sounded fuller. It sounded more like music to my ears than the N00h. I ordered the Aurender N10. Its high cost was justified based on its excellent sound quality.
My Aurender N10 Music Server is a welcomed addition to my audio system. My audio system sounds more open, more natural, clearer, better bass and I am very happy I purchased the unit. The ability to switch back and forth between QoBuz music streaming and my stored albums in the Conductor App is now a very easy process (one mouse click). The Aurender iPAD app is much easier to use than my MAC Book Pro computer. Album selection is also excellent with several different album selection choices available. The Aurender N10 Music Sever is highly recommended for its great sound quality and ease of use. On September 30th, 2020, I replaced my Aurender N10 Server with the Aurender N20 Music Server. My Aurender N20 Music Server is installed and working great. The N20 is supplied WITHOUT hard drives installed. This means hard drives are the customer’s choice. Each of the two rear panel mounting sleds accommodates a 1, 2, 4 or 8TB 2.5-inch SSD or up to 5TB 15mm height 2.5inch HDDs. Since users have different storage requirements, Aurender feels this is the best way to satisfy everyone. My new N20 sounds excellent. The music is clearer, the bass is better, has more air and it has more musical details. The overall musical presentation is much improved. I am listening to jazz now and the sound quality is much improved. In summary, the N20 sounds terrific. I really like it. This is a substantial sound quality improvement. I find the Conductor App very easy to use and find the albums to play. I can very easily navigate between my stored CD albums, QoBuz and Internet radio stations. The Aurender N20 Music Server is highly recommended. I suggest you audition these Aurender models and then decide.
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Absolututely. I started with a N100, auditioned a N10 and finally bought a W20SE. Each cost improvement brings a significant improvement in performance. My Aurender streamer / DAC combo is equally as satisfying as my analog end (not a slouch: Linn LP 12 / Audio Reseach REF 3). It performs exactly the same on red book CDs and better much of the time as Qobuz has lots of high resolution content. I also owned a Auralic Aries G2, which the Aurender beat handily. Aurender seems to be very good at power supplies as well as other aspects of streamer design.
Since a CD player is a physical transport, streamer, and DAC… when you separate streaming…. It is the SQ of the Streamer / DAC you are comparing it to. |
