Ever look at some of the posts on major news site articles on major current events? Audiogon is kindergarten in comparison. Its not an apples to apples comparison. I have been aware of and involved with this audio hobby - almost said bobby lol ! , for 40 years since I was 13. Audiophilia, and specifically the Audiophile - is a very unique, refined, special person :^) Thats what my wife tells me anyway. Not sure what she tells others behind my back..... That makes AudioGon(e) very special and unique compared to the other websites . It is also the biggest and the best (imo) of the audio sites. And to make a one off extreme comparison. If AudioGon or B&W as a company disappear, not just change hands but really disappear - this Audio business and hobby no longer exists. Anyway will try to add some more fun into the thread and stay on topic. Cheers |
Maybe Bo will be our savior and lead us all including B&W to a new audio renaissance where we all enjoy the same gear that he sells the most and live in perfect 3-D Monitor Audio harmony. Or not. In any case we will have reached a really bad place if the posts in these parts ever resemble those you see regularly these days on the lead story of the day on a certain news site whose name happens to start with F, at least on the days that site’s moderators decide that the days inane and mean spirited ramblings are permissible for public consumption. I’m glad that they do. Its the nasty things out there that nobody is aware of otherwise that might be the biggest cause of concern in many cases. Anyway back to the topic... have not heard the new B&Ws will give a listen next time I stop by my local dealer. |
I have just under 15 hours of use on my new 803 D3s. I'm glad these speakers have casters with retractable spikes as I'm still trying to dial them in. Excellent imaging and soundstage. It's always fun to hear a "new" detail on an well known track of music. They haven't quite "disappeared" yet and I think it may take as much as 100 hours to start to hear their true character. Thus far, I am very pleased with them. |
nice early Christmas gift Greginnh - you must have been good ..... congrats.. Do you listen to full scale music and if so are subs used in your room ? What has me very curious about these D3's and I would like to learn more. Here are the specs for the 803 and 802 d2 and d3. 802 d2 (34Hz – 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis) 802 d3 (17Hz to 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis 803 d2 (35hz to 28khz ±3dB on reference axis) 803 d3 (19hz to 28khz ±3dB on reference axis ) The D3's are a full octave lower on paper with a smaller cabinet and a stiffer design than the d2. Are you able to hear 19 hz on your 803 d3 in your room setup ? Here is a sample Bass 1 - 100hz frequency sweep. One needs to listen through headphones, and you can put the signal through your main system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukQ6OSs3dWo The volume needs to be turned up a bit for the 5 - 15 hz frequencies. ****************************************** Just thinking out loud.. We know musical scales are written with eight notes. For example, the C Major scale is written C D E F G A B C, the initial and final Cs being an octave apart. Two notes separated by an octave have the same letter name and are of the same pitch class. The frequency doubles as you go up one octave and halves as you go down. Bass notes are very low frequency which is why there is about 17 hz difference here between this lowest octave, and yet it represents a full octave. Full range bass even with a speaker capable by design, and tested by the manufacturer, assumes a Listener room has the acoustic properties that allow those speakers to play those notes; and reproduced music is played back that actually contains those frequencies. Remember this could be room effects that was captured in the recording not just the instruments. When room effects are captured in a great recording, playing back this recording in your room can take on some "live" characteristics. It adds to the foolery. I am sure all of us here have this music in our personal music collections. In smaller sized speakers in order to make them sound right in a real room, the designer will put in a roll off in the bass. So even by the time the notes hit 50 hz, maybe even 100 hz with some speakers; their DB output level in the bass has been greatly reduced already, and only going down in db the further down you go. Also you will l notice how much lower in volume the 20 hz and down was in that youtube sine wave video? This is the way we hear. But these B&W D3's show full range specs again in a fairly small speaker size. Specs not seen since the days of Matrix Series which needed active equalization as designed by B&W. The 801 s2-s3 matrix was able to achieve full range with the active equalization. Only the 800 matrix model is full range without equalization. But it is also big. So these D3's with their size really hint at kind of a big deal for me on paper. So is it really a big deal or not ? I am curious if D3 listeners "without" sub/s in place are really able to hear the lowest octave "well" with full scale music on the d3's ? ..... or do you still need to bring in sub/s ? Speaking of bass, this guy has the lowest voice in the world. He is able to cover 10 octaves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9P1ymFCxf0 His vocal cords are twice as long as normal and the supporting muscles have more movement. |
CT, I wrote a little about this in another thread where I reported on my own listening test with the 802D3. It was at my local Magnolia in Scottsdale, in a beautiful listening room with wall treatments (but no bass traps if memory serves), not cramped, with the speakers out into the room by maybe 3 feet from the back wall. Given the demographics of Scottsdale, it's not a surprise that this particular store is decked out and well done - it carries Sonus Faber, B&W, McIntosh, Arcam, and some others. I mention this only to provide context - many Magnolias are cramped and poorly arranged with no real space for the equipment to be properly spaced, but the one in Scottsdale is nicely upscale. Anyway, we listened to the 802D3, and in that room they didn't get anywhere near that low. We listened to the first track of the "Titanic" soundtrack which has some really cool low-frequency rumble effects that come in somewhere in the 25-30hz range and those effects just weren't there. That's about as unscientific as it gets, of course, but I've heard those effects on other speakers so I knew what to listen for and it just wasn't there. On another day, in another room, maybe someone else would experience them differently. |
I had seen measurements done by Stereo in Germany on the 802D3 in terms of frequency response and they had the -3db point at 20hz on their own test. It was also a decently flat response from the bass all the way through to the treble on axis. At 30 degrees off axis, the mid-range does have a slight narrowing of dispersion as compared to the treble, but nothing significant and relatively mild and smooth. The impedance stays at 4 ohm through much of the bass and mid-range, so don't give it any amp that is unhappy at 4 ohms, but is reasonably smooth impedance curve and decent levels of efficiency doesn't make it very power hungry. Distortion is also quite low all around. While I'm not really enamored by looks so much, this speakers measured performance and positive press are impressive. While certainly not inexpensive, their performance levels seem to be in line to their market competition so I would certainly have a listen to them. I'm going to look around to see if other measured performance concur with this one, but it appears to be full range design with good balance. |
Bcgator - Thanks for the observations in your post. When u say. Bcgator - That's about as unscientific as it gets, of course, but I've heard those effects on other speakers so I knew what to listen for and it just wasn't there. Unscientific? Not so sure about that. This hobby is based on our ears and our own real rooms. To myself, what better way to know than with music you are familiar with if something is there or it isn't in a setup, especially if that room is close to yours in dimensions. I mentioned the 3 aspects in the last post. They are equally important in my experience. A copy and paste Full range bass even with a speaker capable by design, and tested by the manufacturer, assumes a Listener room has the acoustic properties that allow those speakers to play those notes; and reproduced music is played back that actually contains those frequencies. So based on your post of listening to familiar music, and assuming the speakers are full range and driven appropriately. That leaves (2) the Room. Curious how big this Magnolia room is in Arizona? Did it look like this ? https://www.magnoliaav.com/showcases/listening-room For fun - looks like too much toe in to me in the pic, to meet the 9 ft. 10 " 802 minimum distance requirement for drivers to align? Maybe just an illusion the way the picture was taken. In the video they are pointing straight. What can't be seen in the video within the link is how high the ceiling is and if it is closed at the back ? Really cool btw. No Magnolia's here in Ontario. Just your average Best Buy in one large industrial sized room. Bcgator - On another day, in another room, maybe someone else would experience them differently. Very true. You can't defy physics. Its a delicate balancing act sometimes amps/speaker/room. Too much room and the speaker can't pressurize it properly to hear the low bass. This can put a strain on the amplification. And all 800 series speakers will let you know if the amps are stressed. They get grainy in the HF. if using SS, I always try to shoot for over sized SS amps that stay in cruise mode on music peaks with 800 series. If the SS amp high frequencies can compete with my tube gear I am doing ok. Cheers |
dave_b Here is some info Dave. from absolute sound The crossover location was also changed. It used to be housed in the plinth but has now been moved against the heavy aluminum back panel, which acts as a heatsink. This update has permitted a new solid-aluminum plinth design which is not only more stable but less resonant. Our good friend Bobby is all over the Absolute Sound article comments section :^) :^) Where is Bo anyways ? Here is one Crossover pic. http://www.recordere.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/crossover.jpg |
@mmeysarosh good info in your post. When u say. While I’m not really enamored by looks so much, this speakers measured performance and positive press are impressive. While certainly not inexpensive, their performance levels seem to be in line to their market competition so I would certainly have a listen to them. As far as not being inexpensive, they are also still Made in England. This will be more expensive. I am not a Frequent Flyer with gear. It needs to pass the hardest test - the test of time. I don’t tolerate downtime or failures. The jury IMO is still out on offshore manufacturing. I can tell you that I have owned boutique amps where you get to know the manufacturer / designer well. They have ordered in the past inexpensive common parts like resistors/capacitors from offshore. I have heard horror stories on how a $2.00 part can fail, causing the 5 figure amp to fail. If the buyer is local ok - but what if they are in a different country or a situation where the amp needs to be shipped to be repaired. Is B&W all in house with 800 series parts ? Maybe I will send them an email to find out. fwiw - My first B&W’s were new Dm2000’s bought new at Bay Bloor Radio in Toronto. My brother is still using them. Cheers |
CT, the room in the photo at that link looks bigger than the room we were in, from the clearance on the sides, but hard to tell. It was a nice-sized room, about as wide as my living room, but longer. It's a rectangular shaped, long room with the 805 system on one end and the 802 on the other. The amps in that photo, big McIntosh amps, that's exactly what was driving the 802D3 we heard. I can call the store today for exact dimensions so we're not relying on my memory of the space, but I don't recall it being as spacious as the room at the link you posted. We were sitting dead-center in the room, about 10' from the speakers. And they were not toed-in at all. |
CT, While I do believe B&W make a majority of the speaker in house, I have no doubt that certain key parts are still sourced off shore. But I did find a nifty videos on their build. Caution, the music track on it is awful on the first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sel-EoCEeC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EpH2QsE77w Also, I did find Audio magazine also providing their own measurements and they were slightly different in the lowest octaves, smoothly rolling off down to 20hz. Thoughts are that B&W spent their effort to keep the bass in extended and in level with the rest of the range in room. As many of us know, many designs are somewhat boosted often to create the illusion of improved bass extension, but not so in these new models. |
Lastly, specifications and frequency plots tell you nothing about how they sound..same goes for other gear. Dave - If you add "in your room" after the word sound. I agree Otherwise specs and frequency plots tell you the story from the manufacturers room and their testing. This is important. Its a start and puts you in the ball park to drill down further. It will tell you for example if an amp by its design specs has any chance with that speaker by its design specs. In the end imo, it does boil down to your own room size, its acoustics and your gear. . ****************************************** Here is an example of this that I find really interesting in regards to B&W, that I would like to share. This graph was sent to me by B&W Europe years ago http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1395954200.jpg It is the frequency plot for the 801 matrix "without" using the supplied Bass Alignment Filter. (not sure if it is 801 s2 or s3) B&W England are the ones that drew the two dotted lines on the graph. The 801 matrix speakers were designed to be used with the BAF. The speakers with BAF devices were shipped to original owners. But these devices became lost as speakers changed hands. They pop up on their own on ebay. The two interesting parts. Part 1 Not only does adding the BAF filter as designed give you a smoother response and allow the speaker to hit 20 hz. The BAF makes the 801 matrix speaker much more efficient . Sorry for the quality, but the ohm ratings can be seen on the right 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 ohms. The 801 matrix s2 and s3 are a very easy 6 ohm steady load with the active equalization provided by the BAF. This opens up amp choices. Part 2 Audiophile opinions on the BAF device are kind of split. Not sure if its an even 50% like it, 50% don't like it, but you have the two camps. Why the difference? The room; its acoustic properties, and how the 801 (aka relationship destroyer) deals with it. There is a reason B&W no longer make the 801. You need a dedicated room. Its makes no business sense. 801 matrix owners today (there are many out there and some reading here), that could NOT make the BAF work with the speaker; or who never used it, or even heard of the BAF before; are taxing their amps way more to make bass with the 801. Just sayin.... |
I did say that and it's true...but I also said I likes me some holography in me stereo system. My problem with Bo was that I don't like when the soundstage is squished and the images are small, which is contrary to live music. Imaging itself is cool as long as it is on a scale that convinces me I'm in the presence of live music! |
German magazine Stereo did the review of the 800D3 in Nov 2016: "Such a sound experience is a scarce commodity even for a staunch STEREO editor with 40 years of his own hi-fi story. She has grown to my heart, this B & W. I took them out of the foyer with my pallet, unloaded their 2 x 116 kilograms, took part in mea- surement and photo-shooting, kept them carefully and carefully set up in the listening room, Long with changing electronics and to enjoy. She is not an annoying diva, plays at a high level, but lets you know whether the cable or the component is spontaneous. To call the new 800s a further top loudspeaker, would probably fall short, it is much more an absolute dream and thus the currently most favorable STEREO top reference at all! |
I did listen to a non broken in 802 D3 yesterday for 20 minutes at the Magnolia, Long Island. Even with the mediocre solid Macintosh gear and Audioquest cables, the sound was really something special, effortless (given high power amp). Little 2D ish but speakers were not properly positioned, just couple of feet from the back wall, toed-in, which I hate, bit they had just 20 hours of play time on them, so it was obvious they sound had plenty of room for further refinement. Me and my lady friend who is classical pianist just sat mesmerized, and I thought nothing would "WOW" me at this stage of the game..... Something special indeed. I can’t even imagine what the sound will be like after 500 hours of the break in and with reference class EL 34, or 845 based tube amps and proper wire !!!! |
I don’t know which particular model those were , I d think those were pretty in top of the line range monoblocks 500 watts per channel, judging by the needles, but I could be mistaken....to me all those Mac amps sound bland, flat and lifeless. Of course your experience may vary... But even with those amps you could tell the sound of the new 802 D3s is something exceptional, and I don’t throw epithets like that easily.. |
From what I am hearing from folks in whose ears I trust that have listened to the 800 D3 extensively, the opinion is that 800 D3s are "giant killers" surpassing designs costing in high six figures..... Proper break - in and speaker cables are the key as well as the appropriate amplifier .... None of Classe, Mac, rotel, Bryston & other mediocre & bland amps.... Cardas golden cross appears to be a great match as are Magnan Type 4s, both in true bi wire mode, without usage of the jumpers on its terminals... FM Acoustics are apparently great on these as are german Symphonic Line monoblocks, solid state...Tube side: Mastersound tube monoblocks and VTL EL-34s & Manley monoblocks and Jadis monoblocks & PA150 appear to give be great sonic match.... The only store in the NY tri state area that has 800D3s is the Stereo Exchange, so I ll go and will give them a brief audition sometime next week,.... |
Kot - I was in Stereo exchange over the weekend and didn't see the 800s there - They're in the process of moving, so perhaps they've already been packed up? Their listening rooms were all pretty sparse and even blocked off from the public. Too bad since as an original N800 owner, these are a very logical upgrade and I'd love to give them a listen and see if they live up to the high expectations. |
@gregkohanmim Stereo Exchange was moving?!!!!! Really!!!??? Where? I think they own the whole building.... Wow, its either things must be moving really slow for them , or they decided to sell their most lucrative location in SOHO... I would think they keep the 800D3 in their showroom ZERO.. Did you ask to listen to them? I ve seen the new 802& 803s there as soon as those came out.... Their main listening rooms usually are locked and blocked from the public , you have to ask for a demo... |
Kot - I know that told me but I totally forgot - My guess is that their lease is up and that given their location at Broadway and Bleeker it's got to be going up big time. That said, you should give them a call and ask, In the meantime, if you're into vinyl, they have all their demo records for sale at $3/ pop and I got a smoking deal on the new B&W P9s (I did a quick write up in member reviews here yesterday). In any event still need to get in front of these speakers and see how they compare to my current 800s - Honestly, I was never a fan of any of the diamond series 800s, but I realize that these are a whole new design generation so definitely worth checking out. Only problem is if I go for them, the $3K in sales tax here in NYC will basically suck :) Greg |
Well, get them from a dealer in Jeysy :) Or Delaware & NH . They will deliver anyhow..... They will (should) also deal unlike arrogant ny pricks .... No, I am not into vinyl , but thanks for the tip .. :) Diamond series get bad rap, often because of the poor demo & ancillary equipment... If you choose your speaker wire and amps carefully you shoud do fine... The current series are little more forgiving & less harsh in mid treble ( even unbroken), way less synthetic soudnding, so I think you will like them... As an alternative you may consider Chario Serendipities, now we are also talking absolute sound refinement at relatively "sane" pricing, given current $/euro exchange rate ... Chario’s treble might be more up your alley, and they have other advantages over 800D3 , but its strictly IMHO of course .... |
I own the 802D3 and they are very good speakers. I don't know what else I would want from a speaker in their price range. They disappear easily and image like crazy in the right room with the right lateral and vertical smear controlled. I am very happy with these speakers. They respond well to cable changes, source changes, preamp changes, and amp changes. I run them with Emm labs Dac2x/TSDX transport combo, Cary SLP05 preamp, and Boulder 2060 with Audioquest WEL power cords and speaker cables... only thing I'm weak with is completing the rest of my room treatments (need diffusors) and bass traps, and I need some good XLR... |
