Bi-Wire with two pairs of speaker cables

Just replaced my Morrow Sp3 internal Biwire (old version) with two runs of new Sp3 for an external Biwire. I did this after running the old Sp3 to the woofers and new to the Mid/highs and liked the results. Bottom set still breaking in but good and improvement so far.

I bought two pair of audioquest type 4 no frills from audio advisor. I had them terminate the speaker ends of the two pair with spades. On the amp end, one pair is terminated with spades, the other with bananas. This way, I am able to avoid doubling up spades at the speaker terminal of amp. Instead I place one spade per terminal and one banana. Works out great. The cables are not fancy, just plain white jacket, with speaker and amp ends clearly marked. I think for the money, audio advisor does a great job with the AQ type 4. These Type 4's are highly regarded by Stereophile and have gone unchanged since inception back in the 80's. Why change something that works. Probably the best balanced affordable cables in existence imo. 

Do you think that the designer/manufacturer of high-quality loudspeakers would knowingly use something that degrades the sound?

Stuff happens.

We once got a new batch of NE5532 chips that had 10x the current draw. My company replaced 7 million Philips capacitors that did not meet the life spec. Of those replacements, several tens of thousand had to be replaced because if the bung was over the negative rail trace, it sucked out the electrolyte, shorted the buss and occasionally started a fire.

"....If the plating or base metal was poor, there could very significant sonic effects....."  

leales.

Do you think that the designer/manufacturer of high-quality loudspeakers would knowingly use something that degrades the sound?

Poor plating or base metal also applies to spade lugs and banana plugs.

Is there any technical reason why wire jumpers are better than good quality metal straps ?

If the plating or base metal was poor, there could very significant sonic effects.

Well done crimps or soldered connections are functionally one. In a crimp the metal is mashed into one with the spade.

A pair of metal strips has a quite different LCR than wire. Strips have no dielectric, so the wave travels in air rather than the dielectric. Strips are flat, so therefore have an asymmetric flux field. etc.

Don't believe any manufacturers claim as they have not test their product in your system. In addition, the evaluator does not have your ears or preferences.

Bottom line is if one sounds better, use it. If not don't.

"....I have tried this, but to my ears the only thing that improved the sound was replacing the little mettal strip-jumpers (those generally supplied with bi-wire speaker terminalss) with a quality jumper made from wire...."

williewonka,

Is there any technical reason why wire jumpers are better than good quality metal straps ? One could argue that wire jumpers are, in fact, inferior because they introduce two additional junctions where the wires are soldered or crimped to the terminations (spade lugs or banana plugs). 

Not a problem.

Digging up an old thread here, want to try this with two different cables to my bi wire Q Acoustic concept 40’s and cables to my powered sub all on the single binding post of my moon 240i. Concerned that this will stress the amp, I’ve run it for an hour at low volume and did not notice any adverse effect, amp still runs very cool.

It also depends on the type of speakers and how it was designed.  If you have a small two way monitor, then the difference is probably minor.  

If you have a three way speaker AND if it was designed such that internally, there is a separate run for the bass driver, and a separate run for the mid and tweeter, then you probably will have some nice improvement.  BUT if for whatever weird reason, they combine the bass and mid in a single run, then the tweeter in a separate run, then it sorts of defeats the purpose of bi-wire and you may not get much improvement.

In most cases, it's the big bass driver that is guilty of modulating the rest of the drivers and that is why you need to isolate it be it bi-wire or bi-amp.  Better yet, if you could isolate the bass and give it its own amplification, it's even better.  I once bi-amp my speaker, and there was a significant improvement in detail, definition, soundstage and pretty much everything. 

Hey Guys 
Try Black Cat 3232 you will be in for a 
beautiful surprise

Thanks for the quick response! They are definitely in the running.

@rosstoys  Yes, I sold them. They were pretty good, but I like to experiment with cables quite a bit, and upgraded to Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria (Level 3) cables. They work a bit better for me, but not by a large margin.

I'd say if get a good price on CCAC Magnum Opus, go for it!

I noticed that back in June of this year that the Crystal Clear Audio Magnum Opus speaker cables, plus the matching jumpers were up for sale. Could you tell me why you decided to sell them. I'm considering possibly buying a pair. Thanks!

I had made a pair of AQ Type 8s into a bi-wire cable and that sounded OK, and then ran into Bill Low at a local audio "salon" and he explained to me why his "Rocket" cables might work much better...I bought a pair of the newer version of the Rocket 33s (4 conductors per bi-wire side of each cable run instead of 3) and yeah, he got it right as they're really 2 runs of the same cable, and sound terrific. 

Bi-amping correctly (with a filter removing the bass from the amp powering the midrange and/or tweeter drivers) requires two pair of cables of course, and some bi-ampers like to use heavy gauge on the woofer, lighter on the m/t’s. Bi-wiring can provide similar (though lesser) improvements, and is what Richard Vandersteen recommends for his loudspeakers. Separating the m/t's from the back-emf sent into the cable from a dynamic woofer is a good thing. Nothing wrong with trying different cables on different drivers. It’s only money ;-) .

Unfortunately @jb840 it only accepts spades

Checke to see if your post on your amp will except both spades as well as banana, this way you can order the next set of cables with bananas.

Thanks everyone for your input!

I decided to order a single run of Crystal Clear Audio Magnum Opus speaker cables, plus the matching jumpers.

http://crystalclearaudio.com/products/magnum-opus/

I will do the trick @williewonka suggested (Red speaker cable to HF speaker binding post, Black speaker cable to LF binding post).

When / If budget allows in the future, I will get s second speaker cable pair, and bi-wire then

@thyname

I do not dual wire my speakers ...I tri-wire them, and like others who have posted I use identical cables when tri-wiring. No problems here. My speakers are vintage from the early 1970s - a pair of Pioneer CS-A700's - but the cable is new. Pure copper cable. USA Made. Make certain you label your cable runs. I suggest labels at both ends and in the middle. To my ears tri-wiring is wonderful.
But then, my ears are vintage - just like my rig.
Happy listening.

FYI: I've used the method with good success that williewonka suggested above. Give it a try...

I’m a big proponent of biwiring.  I use homemade silver braid on my lows, limber monocle for my highs and I love it. Cleaner tighter bass, colorful mids, crystalline highs!

Bi wiring a tube amp is very effective when you have 0 - 4 - 8 - 16 ohm connections. Use the "4" as "common" and the "0" for woofer, and the "16" for the tweeter. Polarity of the tweeter may have to be reversed. Easy enough.
Now the thinner (usually) 16 ohm wire inside the transformer only carries the tweeter current. Thinner wire has better skin effect properties for higher frequencies too.
The voltage on 0-4 and 4-16 pairs are the same but phase is opposite with 4 as neutral. 8 has lower voltage, which can be OK is the tweeter is "hot" and you want to lower it.
Try it. Nothing bad will happen.

Bollocks! When will audiophiles realize that changes they make to their system is specific to their system only?!?!?!

The reason for BiWiring is to stop woofer current from modulating tweeter current.

It is totally permissible to use two different cables.

Each and every combination will have various effects.
Jumping one of the legs at the speaker will sound different on every speaker.
Separating the cables will change the inductance and thus the sound. I like mine interwoven.
There is no need to have dual amp outputs, two spades on one terminal or two leads into one spaded is fine. Adding a second terminal adds additional LCR which may or may not alter the sound depending on the components chosen.

In ALL cases, audibility is program, system and listener dependent.

Ignore fan-boy recommendations, experiment and keep what sounds best to you.

Please see http://ielogical.com/Audio/CableSnakeOil.php/#BiWire for a BiWire analysis.

Agree with Tomic.  Forget the internal biwire cables. They defeat the main benefit of biwiring.

External bi-wire if you can with 2-4” of separation in the long runs... the science is the LF field modulates the HF
the field strengydrops dramatically w distance
this is why many internally biwire cables don’t sound better
....

I hear you, jl35. The few times I tried biwiring it did make an improvement but nowhere near as much as simply spending the money on upgrading to a better single run cable. I mean it was not even close. That was many years ago, so given how far cables have come I'm sure its the same today only even more lopsided in favor of the one good cable. Has anyone bothered to make that comparison?

the only downside to a double run is that for same money as 2 pair  it might sound better to get a better cable with a matching jumper...

Yes it does ;-) Thank you @w

@thyname - nope - you install the jumpers across the red and black terminals as normal (red to red and black to black). But when you connect the actual speaker cable, you conenct the red wire to the HF RED terminal and the black wire to the LF black terminal.

Hope that clarifies things a bit better :-)  

Interesting concept Steve @williewonka I do have quality jumpers (Cardas Clear, soon to try Crystal Clear Magnum Opus), but you are saying crossing them ? So one jumper from High Frequency Red, to Low Frequency Black? The other one from HF Black to LF Red?

@thyname - I have tried this, but to my ears the only thing that improved the sound was replacing the little mettal strip-jumpers (those generally supplied with bi-wire speaker terminalss) with a quality jumper made from  wire.

Bi amping ia a different approach that can definitely improve sound quality.

One tweak that often improves sound quality with a biwire speaker (using quality wire jumpers) is inserting the +ve wire into the H.F. terminal and the neutral wire into the -ve L.F. terminal. Strange, but effective!

Other that have tried this also reported improvements

One quality wire that I use a lot from Take Five Audio is this one...
https://www.takefiveaudio.com/products/1095-mil-spec-12-awg-silver-plated-copper-cryo-treated-red/


It's a 12 gauge wire, but they also have other gauges available
- e.g. I have used their 16 gauge wire for the +ve jumper and their 12  gauge wire for the neutral jumper with noticeable improvements

Hope that helps - Steve

@hifiman5 

Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate it. This is good news. Any downside?

My speakers are Revel F228be, and Amp is Ayre VX-5 Twenty 

Yep, that works fine, just don't accidentally short the two terminals.

It is actually best to run two identical pairs of cables when biwiring.  I have been doing that for over 30 years with great success.  Before I had a second pair of output jacks on my power amp. I doubled up the spades.  Just tighten the jacks well so you are getting good contact to both spades.  It will be even better if you have a second pair of jacks added to your amp.

What amp. and speakers do you have?