All these comparisons with no mention of cartridge being used. Considering how much we compare cartridges as a sole sonic factor how can anyone begin to compare 2 turntables with out taking into consideration the cartridge.
Brinkman is often displayed with their own cartridge which definitely has it own sonic priorities. I would doubt any of the TW / Brinkman comparisons have any validity at all.
I have done comparisons on my turntable where comparing two different tonearm / cartridge combinations will lead to very similar sonics, while switching the cartridge between arms will lead to very different results.
In the end it is about buying the "system" that you like. If you heard the Brinkman & like it buy it. Same with the TW. Both are excellent designs. The flexibility of the TW was highly appealing to me and I love mine. I enjoyed playing wit different arms and cartridges having up to 4 at one time until I settled on 2. |
Syntax,
You are g-d to those of you who will listen to you. You know better than all. Mercilessly ruining another TW thread as you have nothing else to do.
I really wonder how much you get off on this. Must be a rush as you can't get it elsewhere. You can't stand that a fellow country man is successful when you are not. Isn't it just sad. This wonderful open forum is where you can somehow feel validated and better than all other posters here and you have better ears than us all. |
Pani,
I don't know either cartridge specifically but do know the family sound. The "characterization" of sound you give sounds more like the cartridge than the turntable based on your description.
As such, that makes both turntables fairly neutral. But neither cartridge is what I consider to push the limits of the turntable design. |
Pani,
I find rather trust my own ears than others. I also rather try it in my system than others. I have heard many a system that I can't get close to pinning down the sound. I have heard the same system sound great one day and terrible the other.
Not saying you didn't hear what you heard but it isn't enough to make a firm conclusion but it is enough to guide a decision in your case for your sonic bias.
I will add there are a few turntables I have heard that each time I hear it it sounds wonderful. I am not talking of TW. I have heard TWs only in very few systems other than my own.
The same applies to CD players.
But I do prefer musical over detailed or as some might say fat juicy (not to fat mind you) images versus etched and thin sound. |
Hey I loved Rega when I was a kid. Sounded great and I could afford it. I compared an AR turntable to an old technics direct drive as a kid. That was one of the system them brought me into this hobby. Then I went to Sound By singer of 33 street (I think that is where it was back then) and heard the Linn sound wonderful compared to what else was out there. It is all relative.
B&O are still IMO beautiful designs. Back in the 80s where modern styling was in.
Syntax, do you have a problem with a Mexicans or Afrikans? Making me wonder. Are you stereotyping?
|
Goldeneraguy,
Sorry, but I really find brunettes more beautiful. I do find a few blondes beautiful, but mostly brunettes.
I love Vanilla ice cream over chocolate.
I guess we all have our biases.
Enjoy Chico. |
I have checked my TW BN with the latest battery PS playing a test tone on my spectrum analyzer. It was rock solid with no oscillation. I did this while on battery. I did not check while charging so I can't comment.
This is all done using an A to D converter into my computer. You can see everything spot on. The weakest link for me is the fact that a belt will always have some limitation on speed accuracy due to wear over time. |
Pani,
I assume you are referring to PRAT. A word with different interpretations. But while I get what you say, I would say that there are UK tables which also don't posses PRAT. I don't want to mention names as to not stir up emotions. I would agree that Rega & Linn are PRAT champs, but I feel it,ought be at the expense of what they miss. Or better said, the perception of PRAT is something that always comes with a price. Some love it, others like it and some grow out of it. What direct drive has PRAT?
Does live music have it? I will say if a ,usicians timing s all over, or even more so a drummer, it makes me crazy. |
Dev,
The latest battery PS holds charge for about 20 hours. Also, it can lock on 33.33 exactly. And it is audible. I have compared Tito the earlier version,and have owned several version softie motor controllers. It is a significant leap forward.
As for the bass, until my table was completely isolated I would agree that the bass was boomy. But my isolation platform once tuned correctly,(which needed to be changed between the AC & BN) elevates the tables to another level. I am fairly dismissive of most of what people say when it comes to bass until the table is fully isolated. And that applies to all tables. Isolation needs tuning or else it will backfire. You need to have it calculated for the weight of the turntable. Using weight ballasts etc help.
I find the difference between a good turntable and a great oneis the isolation. I can knock on my table gently and it won't be heard. Also I can play music very loud and nothing. Just music. Prior to the isolation it was a different story. Every one has their own rooms to consider.
As for the belt & pulley comments, Dev I just don't see it. We traded mails but if I saw what you are going on aboutI would agree. To me the superiority of the BN is how quiet it is. I know you purchased some isolation platform but maybe it wasn't set up correctly. Mine is dead silent. Home made but it works. I know vibraplanes that don't do as good a job. Mind you a few good friends won't listen to their turntables (non TW) if their vibraplanes aren't working - they each had a flat at one time. |
Panni,
I was hoping to amuse you. Do some research on what people feel about PRAT. Does digital have PRAT. Most music recorded these days is done digital. Does R2R have PRAT? Does music have PRAT.
And to make it clear, should PRAT ever be the defining feature of music, our system, a turntable.
I just listen to music. Sometimes I get up & dance with my 3 year old, sometimes by myself. I just enjoy it. Even in my car I can enjoy it, my biggest problem with my stereo are the phone call interruptions.
So back to you Panni. Stop with the condescending tone. No need for it. If you want to join others here in that manner I can certainly take you on, but I am not out to insult or bash anyone unless they don't let up.
As Raul would say, enjoy the music.
As I would elaborate, enjoy the music, not the dissection of it into...... |
Downunder,
I am back to just the copper. But the reason is it sounds almost the same. On the AC I preferred the Living Voice. |
Just wanted to explain my speed test. I have a Prism Orpheus AD-DA converter. I just play a test tone and zoom in to 1000 Hz (I think that is the frequency I am using) and watch it on the spectrum analyzer on the screen. The wave peak is centered on 1000 Hz. When I change the speed up or down it moves to 997 or 1003. It is easy enough to check wow & flutter and if the speed is set right. I don't know if the Cardas LP is perfect but that is what I use. It is spot on to the tolerance of the software I guess but you can see if you are off at all. One thing for sure you can hear the difference when you change the adjustment to being just off a touch. Very easy to hear. The weak link is that a turntable with switchable speed for 33 and 45 can never be as good as a dedicated motor & PS for each individually. And of course the belt. Funny no one has brought that up here as of yet. |
Dev,
Too many questions and you are busy bashing the table. May I ask why you want to know? Just gave you the facts buddy. I did a battery drain test twice. I stood there and watched the spectrum analyzer while the test tone track played beginning to end. Also twice at different times. With and without my Harmonix weight. I didn't check with my outer ring though.
I have a question for you though? What does MBL have to say about acting your amps with the VAC tube amp? Did they think it would work. Seems still like a tough combination with the impedance range of your speakers not being easy for the amps to handle. I just don't know any tube amp that can.
Did you buy your table from Jeff or TW or someone else? New or used? Did you know the Minus K was optimized fr the BN or the AC? What is the weight difference between both? Is it adjustable? If yes how? Did you adjust it?
I don't want you to be ignored or I will hurt Syntax's feelings. But I need to learn how to ignore him. I just can't. Do you know why? Can you offer me advice on how to ignore him better? Why do you need to jump on the negative bandwagon for every TW thread? Did TW or Jeff do anything personally to hurt you? Was it something else? Is your friendship with the Micro Seiki group very important to you? Do you know the truth about why Syntax has an axe to grind with TW? |
Wrm57,
Insults start whenever certain members start insulting other members and make claims to be better than others etc. Any discussion with humble origins and without ego would go much further. I can go and quote what was said but just go above and read it. If I didn't like a product my statement would be simple, I have had very positive experience with XYZ and I prefer that. I think that is much better than going forward and saying that all so & so people have no idea what they are listening to and don't know good sound etc. I have had some bad luck with certain brands in my life. I have owned several high end watches. Some with extreme complications. Yet, some of the "best" brands have failed and even after repair they failed again. But I know several happy people owning the same item. I don't bad mouth the watch. I take it as everyone can have a negative experience. I was unlucky. But since I had a watch that failed, I should tel everyone to stay away from it and that they would be making a mistake to ever buy one? I just don't get it. This is a forum. Yes you can say what you want. But how it is said is extremely important.
And if you are on record already saying your opinion several times in a negative & derogatory way to both the brand and other owners and you persist on doing so I do have a problem. You obviously have an axe to grind. At that point loyal and happy customers will show their support. It is kind of the same as Wilson bashing which went on for years and continues. They are probably at the top in sales of speakers in their respective price ranges. Of course there are different speakers out there that some might prefer. But people bash them and others defend them. But no one does it the way certain members do it in regards to TW. |
Philb7777,
As for the bearing. My Raven AC was one of the earlier units. The bearing was convex on top. Similar to the BN. So is my BN. I think the diameter might be different. Both Dead quiet. Maybe 10 years ago there was a different type of bearing. But as the Phantom had a 1,2 Supreme and upgrades within the designation of each TW has done upgrades as parts have changed availability. This is the same in any industry. I also know that as items are in the market over time feedback will lead to design changes and upgrades. Also manufacturing will evolve as demand changes. A good company will work as such. |
Dev,
To answer your question about the motor controller. The Raven 1 had a different style motor controller with a flip switch. Then came the upgraded controller that many people purchased including myself. More elegant and a bit better sonically. Those are the only 2 I know of of the non battery varient. I know the buttons have changed due to changes in availability but nothing major.
As for the original battery PS mine needed to be upgraded as my batteries would no longer hold charge for more than 4 hours. I had my BN for 3-4 years. They were 6 hours originally.
Dev,
You purchased a second hand unit. And had no direct dealer support. Not from Jeff and not from TW. So your batteries were already old. Anyhow, I changed my batteries but at the same time changed the board. I heard a notable improvement and tested it on my Spectrum Analyzer. It was spot on 33.33. Sound was impressive. I decided to do a battery run down test. Next day it is still going. Finally I did it again. Same thing about 20 hours (I think). I emailed TW about all. His simple interchange is yes, batteries last much longer. Which is excellent. I then said it sounds better. He then answers, he learned a few new things. Enough said.
To Answer Your other questions and get everything in context,
I bought my table from TW directly. Been to his house. Heard his system : Amazing Cessaro Horns system that reveals everything. Wow. Saw his office, factory you name it. He has some customers with high end systems that are beyond anything that you would see on Audiogon. Massive horn systems, top of the line dynamic speakers. He knows how his turntable sounds by listening to it in multiple environments with purpose built state of the art systems.
This was several years ago, but years after I purchased the turntable. I went to the Munich Audio Show and visited TW, and did some sight seeing in Europe and visited my other halfs family in Holland which was very close to TW's office. |
Dev,
As for the calibration of my custom made suspension for my turntable. One thing I want to emphasize is that once I changed from the AC to the BN I needed to make more space on my rack. I had to remove some devises I had on rack that acted as a ballast and really brought the resonant frequency very low. It involved some major changes. I was able to remove and add springs in different locations to get it correct but it took some effort.
Similar to matching a tonearm to a cartridge to get the resonant frequency in the right range.
It doesn't sound like your Minus K was optimized for your BN. Sorry. That is how I see it. No insults, I just bet your AC worked better than your BN based on your descriptions. |
Dev,
Now for the wonderful watch story. I never bashed the dealer on this one although I was very unhappy that the cartridge in question had a compliance that varied from sample to sample. I had a loaner sample from a friend that worked perfectly on an SME V and was just magical. It was resonating at 10Hz. Can't ask much better.
So I made a deal. The one I received was completely different in terms of suspension and didn't work well in my SME V. I was very disappointed. I never bad talked and I am still not. Anyhow, the deal wasn't smooth. Namely the watch he wanted only came on leather strap and expected it on Alligator. But it just doesn't come that way and was never alluded to coming that way. And furthermore, it could not be ordered as they don't make it. And everything was brand new.
I have sold a few friends watches. After I purchased equipment from them. I do believe that fine watches and analogue kind of relate. Don't you?
Maybe you understand this and maybe you don't. Lashon Ha Rah won't get you anywhere.
I can give you several experiences where manufacturers have not lived up to all my expectations. But some have exceeded them. But I don't make it my mission in life to Bad Talk.
On a very positive note, I bought a Harmony One remote. The Lithium battery died and swelled up inside so I couldn't change it. I called them to see if I could send it back and pay to get the battery changed. They told me 3 things. They mentioned had my remote for 3 years. It was no longer under warranty.
AND the third thing, They sent me a new remote free of charge. What amazing service. My VTL preamp and my Apple TV remote and my EMM all are controlled by it. Great company. I hear they aren't doing that well with the remotes anymore. But so few of us take the time to mention anything good, just the bad.
So people wonder why TW owners defend their product so highly. I guess it is due to the excellent service from the people at the top. The forum that allows people to exchange ideas. They create a loyalty by providing an excellent product and service to go along with it. Unfortunately some people seek to destroy this and of course it would be upsetting. |
Dev,
I don't live in the US. Hence I have no dealer or support. So I purchased direct. Anyhow. Tired of this thread. You have my email if you want to take it off line. If it goes up a notch it will only get more dirty. Sad to see you we're that so unhappy to go this far. TW or Jeff must have done something terrible to you.
Glad you get along and agree with Syntax. I don't agree with much of what he has to say although he can be knowledgable at times. But, his superiority complex is something that insults me and many others here. You obviously can accept it.
Since I did answer your questions I am lost what you are going on about. Also curious what bearings as I have seen a few at shows and the two that owned. They were all convex.
You are welcome to visit in Aruba and have a few drinks and hear a properly set up turntable. I am sure my system will be very different In sound from yours as you have some very fine equipment that probably is more to your liking.
I just don't get it. My table sounds amazing. My biggest limitation is the lack of good vinyl. The invitation truly stands. I know it is cold where you live. |
Dev,
Ball bearing? My BN does not. Green inside the platter but my bearing is similar to my AC which is a steel shaft that is convex on top. Are you sure you had a ball bearing?
Any photos. From what I understand they are all the same design and the shaft can be changed but the platter is more difficult to change the sleeve.
Aside from your troubles with design, you did mention liking the sound a lot originally. What changed. L
My experience has been either cartridge setup or phono stage loading make a huge difference. As for my turntable, one thing I found is if the spring based suspension system I custom made was loaded wrong it would collapse the entire analogue experience. Bass would muddy and highs would lose extension. The key is that the music must not travel into the arm and effect the performance of the cartridge.
I have redone the set up on a few friends systems and the improvement in sound was incredible. I feel that you can bring the best turntable and compare it to a simple Rega and the Rega will outperform of the setup allows for such. |
What is the speed accuracy of reel to reel please? Does anyone know.
Wasn't much of vinyl originally sourced as such? |
Thuchan ,
I would love some further explanation of how isolating the motor and turntable separately be off benefit. I am assuming motor vibrations.
Then your comment seems to fly in the face of Syntax's major complaints regarding speed accuracy or even the need to use a timeline.
There is no way vibration is action can be accomplished by a perfectly inert platform. It just isn't isolation then. Then the motor and turntable being Independant of each other would have increased wow & flutter.
Furthermore, if your experience is based on listening, then isn't isolation more important than speed stability.
This is all just conjecture, but based on your statement I don't find another path of logic. |
Peterayer,
Thank you for explaining in more detail. This thread isn't making too much sense. Too many contradictions.
I am surprised you needed isolation for your SME. I thought the O rings would do the trick. But when I think about it, it makes sense. Nothing is as god as a separate platform. The first time I "heard" my Raven was after isolating it. Even concrete floors make standing waves.
I just don't believe any turntable can be judged until isolated. I hunk the best solution is a singular isolation system for the entire analogu system, and maybe Independant platforms to absorb energy on top of the isolation platform separating the motor and turntable. Maybe even the Tonearms if you want to be obsessive. I am just happy so don't worry too much. I just need better vinyl or really the Audio Desk system so I can get more listening time. |
