Audiolabyrinth, Your name speaks volumes for your idea that cables are the standard around which components should be chosen. Once you've found that synergy between components, any change should be carefully chosen to match the values that interact between components lest you end up chasing your tail, wondering why this or that doesn't sound right and end up replacing one component after another, screwing up the equation.
The parameters you've settled on have a narrow window to experiment with and since you've spent a small fortune on cables, anything that's changed has to fall within those parameters or the magic is lost.
It's nice to know there's another way to skin this cat. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
Most of you have probably messed around with more cables than I have. Yesterday, I was in a pinch for longer speaker cables to audition a different amp. Out of necessity I dug out 30 ft. of vanilla Monster Cable I had in a box from the early 90's. I cut it into 4 equal sections and used it to bi-wire my Vandersteen 5As with just the bare wire as terminations. My Audioquest K2s are monoblock length and wouldn't reach.
I'm not sure what it says about hype concerning cables but I'm shocked at how much I'm enjoying the sound conveyed by $25 worth of junk cable I haven't even thought about for 20+ years. At the very least, make sure the rest of your system is where you want it before you dump a boatload on cables. |
@ jmcgrogan2 and nonoise, thankyou gentlemen,I can tell the both of you are seasoned audiophiles to know what I do and why!,happy listening to all! |
Sonofjim, you broke one of the cardinal rules: One variable at a time! Apparently the new amp is an improvement with "junk", but functional, cable. As far as making an assessment about how "good" the Monster junk is compared to your regular cables, the only way is to listen to both cables with your old amp. Only one variable, and you know the sound of that amp. |
Why does it matter so much to non-believers, that some of us believe? For two reasons: 1. It gives technically astute people, who many of us admire and value the opinions of, a negative view of those of people active in high-end audio. The cable lie reflects poorly on all of us. 2. Active recruitment of new disciples into the cable cult tempts us to argue, to prevent others from swallowing the lie. |
For the same reason it matters to the believers......
So you'll have something to argue about.
|
****1. It gives technically astute people, who many of us admire and value the opinions of, a negative view of those of people active in high-end audio. The cable lie reflects poorly on all of us.****
The implication being that no believers are technically astute. Clearly, not the case. How does one explain the many clearly "technically astute " individuals who are believers. It is true that there is a lot of hype; but that, in no way, suggests that it is ALL hype. To suggest otherwise is the worst example of lack of astuteness.
****2. Active recruitment of new disciples into the cable cult tempts us to argue, to prevent others from swallowing the lie.****
I will ask the question again: why does it matter so much to you? Why not be secure in your belief (or lack thereof), and leave at that? |
@ knghifi,Hi,what do you use for cables? |
@ frogman,Hi, What are the cables you have? |
Irvrobinson:
Well said. I think I detected a little Aczelian influence.
Last night I reread his review of the Parasound A21 power amp. How refreshing to read a real review. I really miss his input. he was the last of a kind. The only thing between truth and the charlatans.
He quit his 'hip-boots' articles because he said the ENTIRE audio media industry was now corrupt, so there was no need to point of the voodoo priests, since they are all now selling snake oil.
Have you noticed that a lot of these people can't read. They call the words, but they cannot comprehend. Check out the 'Frogman's response to your post. How in God's name did he come to understand that you said all non-believers were techically astute. It's like talking to a wall. They just regurgitate what they have been told.
I have to read Peter every now and then just to cleanse my head of all the nonsensical claptrap you read here on this forum. The ignorance and gullibility is absolutely breathtaking.
When someone 'accused' me of trying to 'save' them, I knew it was time to move on.
Good luck to you.
Cheers |
If someone switched out the cables in my setup to stock cheapos without my knowing, and I came home from work to listen to the stereo, I would notice the absence of the good cables sound qualities immediately. |
Rok, read again. I think you have gotten yourself worked up to the point that you see (read) what you want to see. My comment said "no believers", NOT "no(n) believers". Interesting, no?
BTW, one the fascinating (?) things about these forums is that posters (I include myself) sometimes get to play these little games; either for the hell of it, to exercise one's language skills, the joy of banter, or...whatever. Having said that, I don't believe for one minute that you are nearly as firm nor passionate in your ideas about this stuff as what you present in print. But that's cool; whatever floats your boat.
Peace. |
"Having said that, I don't believe for one minute that you are nearly as firm nor passionate in your ideas about this stuff as what you present in print. "
And how, pray tell, did you come to that conclusion? And what 'stuff' are you referring to?
Cheers |
LOL! In the audio field, many 'technically astute' people believe that digital is superior to analog, that solid state is superior to tubes and that cables make no difference. There are also 'tecnically astute' people, like Ralph and Al, that do hear audible differences between source formats, tubes/SS and cables. So an astute individual would know that they can't make blanket statements as immature as that (my sides more 'educated', na na na foo foo). I agree with Jimyork's post on 2-23-13: "The same kind of discussions go on between Democrats and Republicans". There is no right or wrong here, only differences of opinions. Each side believing that the 'facts' support their claim, neither side listening to or changing the other sides perspective. So what's the point? Entertainment? Is that what this is? Entertainment? Pass the popcorn..... |
A reasonable person is always open to possibilities. Nothing is black and white and there are no absolutes: lots of grey area out there.
Self appointed high priests of truth are dime a dozen, regardless of field. Sad to say they are here in audio as well. Yes, there are extravagant, over the top claims and snake oil a plenty but we seem to be dancing around the issue of what some people plainly lack: hearing acuity or the outright refusal to pay any more than necessary for what they feel is enough.
This kind of forum will never sort it out. So let's just agree to disagree without the acrimony.
Next thing we'll see are protestors with signs and placards outside of audio shows denouncing the evil and unclean amongst us who would dare proclaim that we can do better.
When that happens, I'll know for certain I am on the right side of the equation as they will reveal themselves to be truly on the fringe.
All the best,
Nonoise |
OK, I'll play a little longer; ten minutes left in my Lifecycle workout (my Agon posting time).
****And how, pray tell, did you come to that conclusion? And what 'stuff' are you referring to?****
A couple of clues:
1.You, actually, have pretty good taste in music. So, not all is lost. There's hope. :-) Anybody who likes Sarah Vaughn the way that you do can't be all bad. That's the good news.
2. The bad news: You demonstrate a pattern of making provocative statements and misrepresenting or misinterpreting what others say (write). Then, when it is pointed out to you, you completely (conveniently) overlook it and move on to your next provocative comment. This has happened several times in this thread, including this most recent exchange. You are too transparent in this respect for there to be true passion about all this "stuff" (the subject at hand, if you have to ask).
BTW, Sarah Vaughn's "Brazilian Romance" is a gem. Pretty good sound, too. But, a little bight; nothing a vintage MIT cable couldn't fix ;-) |
To All:
I just dropped by to give a shout out to Irvrobinson. Frogman then addressed a post to me, and I answered. Thats just common courtesy. But I am finished with the so called 'debate' on wire. I have found that after things like this are over, I just feel bad.
I think the people of this entire site are some of the nicest people you will find anywhere. Smart, educated , well read and seem to have done well in life. A good bunch.
I was looking for an Academic debate, but we could not get away from stereo systems, money and personal opinions.
But, as Nonoise alluded, it ain't that important. I am PASSOINATE about MUSIC. That's it. The gear is just a means to an end. I wish we didn't need it. I would love to walk into my house and say, "COMPUTER! Beethoven's 5th". Just like on Star Trek. :) Maybe I'll see that before I go.
If I have offended anyone, it was not intentional. Just love to spar.
Now, I am finished with wire!!
Cheers. |
****I was looking for an Academic debate, but we could not get away from stereo systems, money and personal opinions.
But, as Nonoise alluded, it ain't that important. I am PASSOINATE about MUSIC. That's it. The gear is just a means to an end. I wish we didn't need it. ****
Rok, I agree completely; and you, perhaps inadvertently, made my point. The problem with attempts to discuss these things is that "academic" and "music" are as diametrically opposed as just about anything. In fact, "academic" is an adjective used by musicians to describe "music" that is dry, soul-less, boring... The two don't mix.
Acrimony? No way! Wire is not important enough to merit acrimony in my book. Now, anybody that tells me that "Sassy" can't sing.... That's cause for acrimony.
Peace. |
"Now, anybody that tells me that "Sassy" can't sing."
Now who could be clueless!!!
Cheers |
|
Audiolabyrinth, in my main I use Audionote tonearm wire, Siltech and/ or Nordost IC's, and Siltech speaker cables. In a second system I use all Wireworld Eclipse, and the basement "workout" system has all Cardas in it. I have some other stuff laying around, some old MIT, TMC, Kimber. |
Not sure why didn't worked in my post ...
Audiolabyrinth, I use ASI Liveline ICs and SCs and HiDiamond PCs. |
The implication being that no believers are technically astute. Clearly, not the case. How does one explain the many clearly "technically astute " individuals who are believers. It is true that there is a lot of hype; but that, in no way, suggests that it is ALL hype. To suggest otherwise is the worst example of lack of astuteness. It is ALL hype. If two cables are appropriately designed for a given application there isn't any audible difference between them. Any technically astute person knows that frequency response is unaffected to within a tenth of a db and there's no added distortion. One can design cables improperly, and those cables may sound different because they are ineptly done, but that's not the case you're making, is it. THe case you're making is that two cables that transmit exactly the same signal by any measurement we can make sound different. That's irrational. For example, how does an analog interconnect affect frequency response or distortion? Better yet, how does it affect sound-stage or how "clean" highs are? There aren't even theories for how this might occur. I suppose if you design in some sort of impedance mismatch, or perhaps specifically design a cable to have excessive capacitance this could happen, but that's inept design, and that's not what Rok2id or I am discussing. There is no academic argument about this. There's no debate at all, because there is no basis for the cables-sound-different argument other than someone says so. The very same principles that underlie the design of our equipment are the same principles that are used for the case that all properly designed cables sound the same. |
Well said. I think I detected a little Aczelian influence.
Last night I reread his review of the Parasound A21 power amp. How refreshing to read a real review. I really miss his input. he was the last of a kind. The only thing between truth and the charlatans.
He quit his 'hip-boots' articles because he said the ENTIRE audio media industry was now corrupt, so there was no need to point of the voodoo priests, since they are all now selling snake oil. I enjoy some of Aczel's writing immensely. Some of his writing, like the Biggest Lies, or the Zais-Atkinson article, are perhaps the best examples of writing in the audio press. I think Azcel's focus on science and engineering is very admirable. On the other hand, I'm not an unqualified follower of his. I think he is prone to unsupported assertions on points where *there are* measurable differences, or where personal opinions are indeed involved, and I think he could stand to improve in those areas. Like, for example, his assertion that the Linkwitz Orion is the best speaker one can buy, period. I've heard the Orion, it's a good speaker, a very good speaker, but I've heard better, and I think for Aczel to assert it's better than anything else is no more excusable based on his opinion than someone here saying their Audioquest speaker cable sounds better than 10ga stranded copper. |
Are "properly designed" and "given application" escape clauses?
If so, then you've just described a cable made to order for a "specific" application.
Friend who are not into this hobby as much as I can hear the difference as well but don't consider it important enough to worry about it. That alone speaks volumes as I suspect that that is the underlying meme going on here.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Are "properly designed" and "given application" escape clauses? No, not at all. I'm just stating this caveat because you *can* improperly design a cable and make it sound different. You can make speakers cables that have too small a gauge for a given speaker's impedance, or the required cable length. You can make interconnects that have improper impedance, bad shields, poor insulators, or some weird geometry that increases inductance or capacitance beyond some reasonable trade-off of values. For example, a speaker with a minimum impedance of less than 2 ohms that needs a twenty-five foot cable run is not going to be best served by 16 gauge cables - a 16 gauge cable in that scenario may indeed cause audible differences, and there won't be any mystery why. It'll be measurable. |
I think Aczel says that there are no differences in wires that cannot be explained in terms of resistance, capacitance and inductance. His back issues contain an article showing how cables with different electrical characteristics caused very large and measurable differences in the frequency response based on the cable's interaction with the amp/speaker circuit. I know he once wrote that coat hangers are identical to the most expensive cables, but that statement seems inconsistent with his own article.
On amplifiers, he does say that amplifiers of a similar design, matched in levels and run below clipping are indistinguishable from each other in listening tests. He never said that all amps - tube and solid state, set and push-pull, all sound the same. |
Okay.
One set of cables are designed to "fit" the requirements of an amp and a pair of speakers.
Said cable will not work as well with other amps and speakers since they are of different design and needs.
No one cable is good enough for all applications?
Did we just come full circle?
I have several sets of cables that sound different to anyone who would care to listen and all are well regarded, well made cables. So it seems that a cable that would fit the requirements of a given system can only be made one way and if anyone makes that particular cable, they should all sound the same.
That I understand but doesn't it stand to reason that there need be as many types of cable needed to satisfy the particular requirements of all the possible combinations of amps, speakers, length and gauge in order to get the best possible sound?
I don't mean to sound obtuse (though I've been accused of being stubborn) but I think we're all agreeing on this from different perspectives.
All the best,
Nonoise |
One set of cables are designed to "fit" the requirements of an amp and a pair of speakers.
Said cable will not work as well with other amps and speakers since they are of different design and needs.
No one cable is good enough for all applications?
Did we just come full circle? No, no, no! That isn't what I said. Either you're foolish or just being difficult, I'm going to assume the latter. In the case of the example I made for speakers, any 10 gauge stranded copper cable will work for any speaker, in any reasonable length (like, less than 100 feet). 12 gauge wire works just fine for many, many cases. I was just pointing out that you can screw up speaker cable by going to too small a gauge. I was not at all trying to say that every speaker needed a different set of cable parameters. Any properly designed RCA-terminated interconnect will work indistinguishably from another, no matter what the length. For lengths over, I dunno, fifteen feet, you might want to consider balanced cables (XLR-terminated) to take advantage of common mode rejection, but there won't be audible differences between cables. In the case of XLR cables, anything you pick up in a music store for mics or amps will do fine. We did not come full circle. Stop it! |
On amplifiers, he does say that amplifiers of a similar design, matched in levels and run below clipping are indistinguishable from each other in listening tests. He never said that all amps - tube and solid state, set and push-pull, all sound the same. That's sort of true, but Aczel did assert that if tube and SS amps measure alike they will sound alike. I believe that too. With amps I wonder if things are a little more complicated than Aczel asserts, but, to be honest, I'd rather be on his side of the argument than one asserting differences between amplifiers. A lot of good amps these days don't have a single measurable artifact of noise or distortion above 80db below 1W of output. How any differences could be audible even in the quietest room on an awesome speaker system is difficult to imagine. Other than more power for higher clipping limits, or more stable performance into very complex loads, you begin to wonder about what could possibly improve? |
Here we go off the civil path. Neither foolish nor difficult, but patient enough to tolerate another's view. Wish I could say the same.
How does that saying go? "I'll support any man searching for the truth but will fight anyone who claims to know it."
I just don't agree and am trying to understand your point of view. Bare in mind I'm not going to agree with you.
I've seen the same wire constructed with many different terminations (even bare) all measure the same and yet most here would agree that terminations impart their own sound. Some feel, like me, that bare wire is the best way to go. To me it stands to reason that within those same measurements lie more variance than some care to admit.
And as for gauge, why do my 18 gauge Mapleshade SCs sound better than other, thicker guage SCs? I'm talking Zu Mission, Music Metre, Supra SCs that are up there in thickness, well made, and yet can't keep up with what the Mapleshades have to offer.
Don't bother responding if you're inclined to be nasty.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Nonoise, I will openly admit that I'm only discussing this with you because I'm avoiding a task that I really to need to accomplish, a very difficult and arduous task, and arguing with someone who believes he can hear the difference between terminations distracts and amuses me. It is so ridiculous, so implausible, that I can't respond with anything you would call civility. Open-mindedness does not mean being open to silliness.
I want to thank you, however, for convincing me that I need to stop avoiding what I know I need to do, get to work, and stop this useless posting.
Talk to you in another six years or so. |
In those intervening six years or so you'll find lots here of the same mind as me who've already stated as much in other threads and are of a wider exposure and experience level and are given much more respect and difference in their thoughts and views.
After all, it's just a conversation, not a conversion to be had.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Irvrobinson, in addition to being an intelligent/knowlegeable person, you are equal parts arrogant, rude and impolite. Your attitude toward, and response to Nonoise speaks volumes. You come off as a real ass. |
This is for Irvrobinson. Enjoy. |
@ frogman and knghifi,I was currious to know the cables the both of you use,Thankyou gentlemen for answering my request,very outstanding cables you both have indeed! |
Wow!I like this thread,entertaining to say the least!,thou I can tell who are well seasoned audiophiles and been exposed to alot of equipment and cables,you know who you are,we have spoke or complimented each other on this thread,you gentlemen that have a vast knowledge of the hi-end audio I enjoy talking to!the rest is pure entertainment,like jmcgrogan2 said,going out for popcorn,In my case I have allready poped the popcorn to get ready to read this forum,LOL,so I will not miss A beat,now thats entertainment!happy listening! |
@ nonoise,Hi,what do you use for cables? |
Audiolabyrinth,
I use 8' runs of Mapleshade Double Helix speaker cables, Mapleshade Ultrathin Analog interconnects and Zu Audio Mission power cables.
Nothing expensive but the best I can find in my price range.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@ nonoise,I do not believe I have heard of this cable brand you have,correct me if I am wrong,the brand is called mapleshade?,this is new to me and I love learning of new products!,never heard of zu audio ither,I will try to research on computer when I get time latter today,that is better than putting you thru explaining the sound,how they are made,where,etc...,thankyou for answering my request.cheers! |
where is the debate?,did we win! |
|
Ebm has a healthy attitude I think when it comes to these things...... |
Ok,lets get the entertainment back,cables are the most important part of a system! |
where is rok2id?,regardless of the difference in opinion,he kept this forum rolling along!Tell him to come back!,I miss the entertainment!,I respect his passion for what he believes!,I thought my last post would snag him to post something,If you see this post rok2id,I enjoyed your posting in this thread!cheers! |
Audiolabyrinth, this thread has run it's course, as all threads eventually do, but rest assured, there will be others, and Rok and his crew shall return.
If you miss the battle that much maybe you should start a thread that says anyone who can't hear differences in cables does not belong on audio forums. That should stir up the hornets nest again. ;) |
@ jmcgrogan2,LOL!,I miss the debates,but I do not want to be the one in it,just make a subtle comment here and there and watch the entertainment with popcorn for real, LOL!,I do not have the balls to say what you recommended I should say,man-o-man I would not want that wrath on my head!,LOL! |
These forums are a great place to learn but one needs an OPEN mind. It's possible rok2id upgraded from his Yugo with a new perspective? |
I'm not afraid Audiolab, there IS something seriously wrong with the cable haters. Are they hard of hearing or do they not have system enough to discerned cable differences? Are they buying into their own hype? Why has this become such an issue for some? I can't believe some of the stuff I've been reading and do not understand the inability to judge differences in interconnect and speaker cable.
Maybe the cable haters really don't belong on audio forums jmcgrogan2? That would be a better topic.
Folks, cabling plays a huge role in all live performances, in all sound recording, in all sound reproduction, and therfore in ALL of our sound systems. There is no question it has an effect on what we hear. |
@ knghifi and waxwaves,I agree knghifi,hopefully rok2id did get a new perspective,,waxwaves,I could not have made a better post 3-7-13 myself!,you hit the nail on the head!very good explanation!you have my best respects!,As a matter of fact,one of us should start a new thread saying what jmcgrogan2 recommended!,I would be there everyday!,we may be able to teach cable hatters about cables!cheers! |
