Cartridge recommendation for classical listening

Solution for Grado hum:

https://www.haglabs.com/collections/accessories/products/humbucker

You may indeed be right about the inductance and capacitance, but it was much easier to change cartridges.

Since you now have a different cartridge, but apparently also high output, the same rules apply. You might like it now, but if loaded properly it will get better. Here is an online calculator for discerning the loading values:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

I’ve listened to bits of  a great variety of records, and, so far, the cartridge has done a wonderful job on almost all, bringing out details I never heard before, and yet sounding very elegant and musical.  It is smooth throughout the tonal spectrum.
 I’ll report more as I listen to more repertoire.

Welcome back to MM club, there is no benefits of HOMC over MM in my opinion. Glad you like Virtuoso.

My advice is to inspect your Grado stylus tip and refresh it if it's worn. 

I love my Grado TXZ so much and i hope you can fix your Grado Reference Sonata. Here is grado factory tour, very interesting. 

Well, I just got the Clear Audio, and even without break in, the difference is very noticeable.  On some of my favorite records that were harsh with the Sumiko,  there is smoothness, yet no detail is lacking.  I can enjoy them again!
On good sounding records, there is a smaller difference, but the Clear Audio shines as well as the Sumiko, and there might be better bass definition.
More, after I listen to a great variety of records.

Atmasphere,

You may indeed be right about the inductance and capacitance, but it was much easier to change cartridges.

Since the high end of the cartridge tends to be a little bright (which you might not agree with,) records that have a bright high end of their own are exacerbated by volume increase.

@rvpiano  As I mentioned earlier, if you have a high output cartridge, loading of the cartridge is paramount for correct performance! If not loaded correctly it is common for the unloaded cartridge to be bright. This is due to an electrical resonance that is occurring due to the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the tone arm interconnect cable (plus the input capacitance of the phono section).


For this reason, its a good idea to use a low capacitance interconnect cable- to push the resonance up and outside of the audio band!!

IOW the brightness you hear may not be an actual characteristic of the cartridge- and is just a setup issue; one which happens with many cartridges. Since this is a really inexpensive thing to deal with, its worth it to look into this before moving on.

Goldring 1042

Since the high end of the cartridge tends to be a little bright (which you might not agree with,) records that have a bright high end of their own are exacerbated by volume increase. I’m not saying it’s there on well produced records.  It’s not. But on not so well produced records, which I have a lot of, it’s painful.
Until the Clear Audio arrives, I’m listening to good sounding records, and the Sumiko is really excellent!

such as, the beauty diminishing as I turned the volume up.

@rvpiano,  If the volume has something to do with it, that's not the cartridge.

There are cartridges on the market with 9.5 mV output like Shure M44-7, unfortunately they are not the best MM in terms of sound quality, not better than MM with 1.5mV output.

High efficient speakers is the key to keep the volume control knob down even with passive preamps and low voltabe power amps.

I’m running 1.5 watt single ended triod tube amp with passive preamp, some of my cartridges are 0.2 mV and the volume control on my passive Pass Aleph L preamp is no more than 10-30%. Why? Because the speakers are 101db (and my room is not small).

It is system dependent. According to Nelson Pass we often have too much gain in our devises. 

I have a Nagaoka mp500 with an mp300 stylus and also a Goldring 2500.
Usually, the higher the output volts of the cartridge, the slightly better it is for noise,
since you do not have to turn up the volume as much and also amplify the noise.
Classical is "typically" quieter than rock /pop/jazz where this may be important.
I therefore prefer the Goldring 2500 for classical since it "sounds" quieter.
It has an average 6.5mV output as opposed to the 3.5mV on the Nagaoka. This gives about 3-4 dB of better noise figure.

I use these on a Linn Sondek with an SME3009R arm.

I must admit I love the "looks" just as much as the sound :-).

I probably shouldn’t be writing this, but as I’m listening to the Sumiko while waiting for the Clear Audio to arrive,  it sure sounds good on the best produced records.  It’s just that the ordinary discs, which make up the bulk of my some 3000 records, don't sounds so wonderful. 

I don’t think i can use a moving coil, because the output level of my vintage Conrad-Johnson preamp is Low and designed for moving magnet.

Many people just missed the point that you phono stage is MM only.

When dealer can swap cartridge with no loss for the buyer it is nice. They got their margin anyway and you must be happy after all. Give it a try and get Virtuoso instead of HOMC Sumiko, at least Virtuoso is MM and your phono stage is MM only (47k Ohm).

If you have to choose between those two cartridges from your dealer then get Virtuoso and tell us about your experience with this MM after your experience with HOMC.

Must be interesting process. 

Raul,

You are so right!!!
MY opinion is the one that counts.
 I admit, in the first couple of days,  I got “carried away” with the first flush of hearing something better than I owned previously, and I had to share it.
However, upon extensive listening, reality set in and I began to hear anomalies that bothered me, such as, the beauty diminishing as I turned the volume up.
Yes, in certain parameters it’s a wonderful cartridge. And I stand by my rave.
But, could I live with it in a larger variety of music where soaring climaxes are important.  In many cases, no. It became shrill. Not always, I have to admit, but enough to realize that a large part of my collection would be unlistenable if I kept it.
I need a more forgiving cartridge, even if it’s not quite the ultimate in revealing.
In other words, a real world cartridge that i can enjoy as a music lover, not just an audiophile.
Also, i read many Audiogoners who complained they had damaged or destroyed it due to it’s precarious design. Many more complaints than raves.
 The combination of those two factors persuaded me it would be better to look elsewhere. 

Dear @rvpiano : """ Based on the bad opinion of the Sumiko stated here.... """

first than all I do not seen a bad valid opinion in this thread and at the end the main and more important opinion is the one coming from you and this is what you posted:

"" But it works wonderfully on my system. It does really sing..."""

and you followed with this other post:

""" It is sounding even better. Along with the definition and detail has come a sweetness and warmth I didn’t expect. Very happy with it! """


and now you are thinking to return it. Are you seriously?

Not all audiophiles can post cartridge information experiences as the ones you had.
Who cares other person opinions? or whom are those other persons?

Cantilever fragility?, not really. VdH Colibri or the Dyna XV-1 or EMT ones comes with the same type of " cantilever fragility " and these cartridges stays in a 3.5K-7K price range and owners are really satisfied with, including me. The Virtuoso comes with almost that " cantilever fragility " too. But it's up toyou that is the person who has to live with.

There is no perfect audio items. 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Atmasphere,

 I’ve made the decision to pull the plug on the Sumiko and go with the Clear Audio.  We’ll see if the problem remains.
Thank you for your suggestions.

Whenever  the volume is turned up there is a harshness in the treble.

@rvpiano
So if the volume is down its OK? That might be vibration reaching the turntable when the tunes are cranked. You might want to try a platform to reduce vibration.


The other thing to pay attention to is loading. High output cartridges have a lot of inductance- in concert with the capacitance of the tonearm cable, this causes an electrical high frequency resonance. That can make it sound bright if its in the audio region. If the Sumiko is higher inductance than the Grado this might be why you didn't hear that before. Its easy to tame- take a look at this link:http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html


Getting the loading right is critical to get the most out of high output cartridges!!

@atmasphere Ralph, his version of Sumiko is HOMC, not LOMC. 

@nandric Nikola, if i remember correct you owned Clear Audio Virtuoso 

The problem is not in the hum (there is none) but in the hight end.
Whenever  the volume is turned up there is a harshness in the treble.
Otherwise the sound is really exemplary.

?? It sounded like you enjoyed what the Sumiko was doing!

I would still consider getting the motor grounded in your turntable. But some cartridges are less sensitive to that noise (Sumiko) and there is an old saying I'm sure you've heard before- 'if it works don't fix it'  :)

I've had good luck with the Sumiko cartridges. Like any other, it must be a good match with the tonearm.

Based on the bad opinion of the Sumiko stated here and also the purported extreme fragility of the Sumiko I’m thinking of returning it.
The dealer is giving me the option of the Clear Audio Virtuoso cartridge.
I don’t think I can get a refund.
Any opinion about this cartridge vis-a-vis the Sumiko.
 It’s either one or the other.

I think this article could be interesting read if you want to know the opinion about MC coloration from professionals.

Anyway, personal preferences is just personal.  

Elliptical stylus has very short life span compared to LineContact and Micro Ridge type of styli. 

Part of  (but NOT all) of the hum problem was a faulty outlet.
The Grado/Rega combination always had a hum.  The Sumiko has no hum at all.
I know there is a “new toy” syndrome, but the improvement was evident immediately.
 I think the Grado is probably a little worn out, but it never sounded like the Sumiko.  If anything, the Grado was more “colored.”

@rvpiano great, now while you are enjoying your new cartridge you’d better send your Grado MI for inspection to make sure the stylus is not worn out.

The hum problem is gone with Sumiko ?

It is always worth to get back to the old cartridge after a few month of using new one. Then you can make a honest opinion to make sure you’re not just biased by the new toy :)) If you need more definition use your Grado with 100k Ohm loading instead of 47k Ohm.

Since the stylus tip on your Sumiko is just an Elliptical (you have the same on Grado) i don’t quite understand how you can get a better definition, probably what you hear is a typical MC high frequency raise and some sort of coloration you might prefer over neutrality of the Grado.

Look at the specs:
Your Grado: 10Hz - 60khz
Your Sumiko: 10Hz - 50khz

As you can see the specs for your Grado is slightly better. 

I’m using my Grado XTZ with 100k Ohm Vishay Naked Foil resistors, i have replaced conventional cheap stock 47k Ohm load resistors in my phono stage (just two resistors) and it was a huge upgrade!

The XTZ Grado has superior stylus profile called TWIN TIP.
You could upgrade your Grado with better stylus profile, not sure if the Grado Labs can do that for you, but you can ask.

Now that I have several hours on the cart (playing it almost all the time,). It is sounding even better. Along with the definition and detail has come a sweetness and warmth I didn’t expect.  Very happy with it!

For about a year i have two different cartridges and tonearms on one turntable connected to one mc/mm phono stage. This is the combination i am using most of the time for some reason.

1) High mass Lustre GST-801 tonearm with low compliance Miyabi MCA cartridge. WLM Phonata Reference (MC input) mosfet phono stage with built-in SUT.

2) Light mass Denon DA-401 tonearm with high compliance Grado Signature XTZ (MI) cartridge WLM Phonata Reference (MM input). Never heard any hum from my Grado XTZ.

Both cartridges are top class, but entirely different, it’s low compliance LOMC versus high compliance MI. Tonearms are perfectly matched.

It’s impossible to say which one is better!

1) Miyabi MCA is warm with very deep soundstage, great bass. Made in Japan by Takeda-San.


2) Grado XTZ is also warm with very wide soundstage. Made in USA by Joseph Grado.

Cartridges are different, but both are amazing in its own way.

This is the reason i never understand the statement that MC is better than MI by default, it is not true.

I wouldn’t listen to people that never had all types of cartridges for a long time using the best in its class (LOMC, HOMC, MM, MI, IM, MF)

Honestly, even if on a weekend i prefer one type of cartridges i know that there will be another weekend when my preferences will change to another type. It is absolutely necessary to have all types ready to use, for this reason i have two turntables, many phono stages, suts, headamps connected to 4 different tonearms with pretty big collection of cartridges on the record shelfs.

I think none of my top 25 cartridges can disappoint me, no matter what type (LOMC or MM/MI). Record pressing or mastering can disappoint me. The rest is all about the mood.

I like the process and i like the result. 5-10 years ago i tried many cartridges that disappointed me, i don’t have them anymore.

I curious what i’m gonna do in the next 10 years ? I believe most of the greatest vintage cartridges from the 70s/80s/90s already discovered.

"The CJ IS a tubed preamp."
Perfect, you can go directly to a P8/10!!

The CJ IS a tubed preamp.

"I was amazed at what the turntable was capable of with this new cartridge."
rvpiano-

The transition from MM to MC was dramatic to my ears.


The Bird will sing best, playing it thru the most phonostage you can afford.
This is another MAJOR area of audio epihany.


Being a $1K cart, consider something more upscale( $2K+) to REALLY hear it do it's thing.Tubed or SS, will make you realize what the fuss is all about. I'm in the tubed camp. More convincing to my ears.

Getting that cart opens up the "can of worms"

Nicer phonostage for the cart. Upgrading  the table to match everything else..... the madness never ends.

I wouldn’t mount a $1K cartridge on a P3. It’s a nice turntable but I doubt you can wring enough performance out of that deck and tonearm to justify the spend. Others will surely disagree. If it were me I would mount a Nagaoka MP-500 and be done with it.

I think an investment in a good cartridge is worth it for any turntable, because that cartridge does not have to stay on one turntable, it’s a separate device. $500 or $1000 - doesn’t matter at all, the price does not indicate the quality directly. Cartridge can cost more than a turntable and it’s fine if the quality of the cartridge is nice.

What must be avoided is an inferior cartridges for more money if the lower price cartridge can beat it easily (only owner can decide for himself).

In fact, I was amazed at what the turntable was capable of with this new cartridge.

The P3 has been extensively upgraded with nearly a thousand dollars in modifications.

I wouldn't mount a $1K cartridge on a P3. It's a nice turntable but I doubt you can wring enough performance out of that deck and tonearm to justify the spend. Others will surely disagree. If it were me I would mount a Nagaoka MP-500 and be done with it.

IMO, the London Decca cartridges and Ortofon SPUs are especially good for classical music. Both cartridge brands have models in their respective families for well under $1,000. But these cartridges will require tonearms that are compatible with their size, weight and resonance limitations.

Low output model (0.7 mV) will need more gain than your MM input can provide. Also for LOMC you may need optional loading, 47k Ohm could work too, but any lower value from 100 Ohm to 47k Ohm is nice to have too. 

The output of your Sumiko HOMC cartridge is just like MM cartridges, this is why your MM input is fine with your 2.7mV High Output MC

But MM cartridge definitely can work better with your MM phono stage, it can be better in terms of sound with more advanced (user replaceable)
stylus profile than your Elliptical, but the output of MM cartridges also higher up to 5mV depends on the model. 

Anyway, step by step upgrade is a long process, enjoy your HOMC, you can always find something better in the future. 

What’s surprising about my preamp is that at a ten o’clock setting the volume is quite loud. I’m wondering if the low output model might work better.
However, at this point I’m really enjoying the sound of this model.

And don't forget to ask your dealer about the cost of re-tip if your bought your MC cartridge instead of some nice MM. With Sumiko ELLIPTICAL tip you can use only for about 600 hrs at recommended tracking force, then it must be inspected and after 600 hrs mark you will have to re-tip it soon. 

This Sumiko is extremely fragile, the cantilever can be easily destroyed simply because it is not protected at all. A bit strange that you worried about alignment (probably because of possible damage), but purchased the most dangerous cartridge. Like Lyra, VdH and Dynavector with unprotected cantilever , your Sumiko require extreme care in operation. Personally i always trying to avoid such cartridges, because after i accidentally destroyed one expensive MC i realized the cost of repair (if ever ever possible). 

When you reported us that your phono preamp has only MM input i assume your Sumiko is HOMC (High Output MC), right ? A high output MC is always inferior in comparison to the Low Output MC, mainly because of more coil wire winding that cause higher moving mass. 

Of course the most important is your own opinion about cartridge and the sound quality. 

 

Tablejockey,

 You’re right on both counts.  The stylus is quite protruding. Could easily be damaged.  I have the high output model.  Can be a little hot.
But it works wonderfully on my system.  It does really sing.
Thanks for your good wishes

When I had a modded Rega P5, I tried the Sumiko Blackbird.
Great introduction to MC, if it's your first. You definitely have to be aware at at all times, when you're near the arm. The cantilever is quite delicate.

Are you using the Low or High output? That cart can really sing if your phono stage is up to the task. May be a bit hot on the upper end, depending on the downstream equipment/setup.
Enjoy it.

I really appreciate your input.
My problem is that I have no ability to install a cartridge on my Rega arm by myself.( It’s not a screw in type.). Whenever I’ve tried it I’ve screwed it up.

I’ve noticed that, but let me tell you that an MM cartridge must be installed without stylus, so it is impossible to damage anything. You add stylus when you cartridge body already screwed and wires already connected. Alignment of the cartridge is what you definitely have to learn and practice yourself, but it is very easy if you have a protractor like Dr. Feickert or the one you can get with Hi-Fi Test LP. Both tools are great and must have, you can find them used.

Too late, but i’m pretty sure this Sumiko is not your last cartridge :))

Cartridges cannot be designed to favor classical music! The idea that any component can favor a certain genre is entirely mythological. Usually this idea is applied to speakers but it really doesn't matter- what makes a component good for one genre makes it good for another.

Totally agree with Ralph's statement above. A good cartridge is good for all genres of music. Same about speakers. 

My quest is over!
Thanks everyone for your valuable input.
In the end I had to let practicality dictate the answer.
I decided on the Sumiko Blackbird.
The store expertly installed the cartridge free of charge.
Out of the box, I am happy to say that the Sumiko has made me more than contented
It’s in a different league from the Grado
 An excellent match to my CJ,  I hear details and subtleties I never heard before. No harshness.  Very refined presentation. More real.
And, no trace of a hum!
Once again, I hear the niceties of analog sound.

Again, to all, my gratitude for your input.

I recently put an Ortofon Quintet Red on a Linn Akito and after some break-in it sounds astonishingly good, and not music genre specific one iota as befits any good cartridge (or any gear for that matter). I'm looking forward to exploring the rest of the Quintet line if I get tired of the Red...but for now it's so good it's likely gonna be around until I wear it out.

Ortofon 2M Black

Hana sounds good but it ’s dynamics are too low for symphonic music.
The Rega Exact 2 I use is a solid body and is made totally in England  by Rega and Rega alone .Very high  quality.

A Hana LS (low-output Shibata) with a SUT would indeed be a formidable combination! 

I too would nominate the Hana. Try the Hana SH. The sound is faithful to its name Hana, gorgeous. Needless to say, the Shibata tip is better than the elliptical (EH) when it comes to tracking and detail extraction, which are essential to good classical music playback. 

I’d try the Hana line of cartridges, very sophisticated sound and excellent tracking ability. An economic and excellent solution would be the audio technica AT-F7 with a step up transformer.

Dear @rvpiano : Due that you really like that Grado cartridge what you have to do is to follow the atmasphere advise . Read again his post and the advise coming from he I know will works and you will be really satisfied with.

R.