Listening to mostly jazz, solo instruments and vocals I find my Martin Logan Spire hybrids to sound awesome, but recently I was listening to some both "Busy" 90’s rock and classical (lots of instruments playing loudly together) and I find the music starts to sound garbled and annoying (to bright), so much so, I turn it off. I was wondering if you all might have some suggestions on some speakers that would be a little more forgiving with busy/loud music that I could possibly switch over to when listening to different types of music. That is unless I can find speakers that can handle all styles of music, then I would consider taking the hit ($$$) on selling the Spires.
Without getting into room size and dynamics, lets just call it a standard room, I was also looking for something more efficient. The Spires need a huge amount of power (and volume) to sound good. Looking more for something I can listen to loud but also still enjoy the music at a much lower volume if that’s at all possible. Neutral and not to bright. Living in the sticks, I can’t just jump in the car to go demo speakers. Only once, in the past, did I purchase a set of speakers online and unheard, going solely on the sales person’s recommendations. I learned the hard way to never do that again!
Equipment now: Coda CSiB integrated amp with W4S 2v2 SE Dac running Roon Nucleus.
I also wanted to mention that the Spires have phenomenal base, so much so I sold the 2 subs I was originally using with them. Floor standers and bookshelfs have come along way in SQ these days, but if I need to purchase another set of subs the budget is starting to dwindle.
No vinyl or CD’s, just Tidal.
$3,000 - $5000 budget, new or newer demos.
Thanks for any suggestions or advice you may have to offer! Paul
" So a 1k load is quite ridiculous really, not sure why they would release something like that but surely don’t drive that single-ended. Running balanced will drive it and whatever degradation would be common to both phases so likely to cancel out. I can test a DAC to see how it handles it if you wish but I suspect it would be fine".
I’m afraid all this technical lingo is above me, could I please trouble you to comment on this response? Is the fact they "suspect it would be fine" acceptable in your mind?
First, to be sure it’s clear, you would not be driving 1K with a single-ended connection, as the input impedance of the single-ended inputs of your amp is 50K.
Regarding ...
Running balanced will drive it and whatever degradation would be common to both phases so likely to cancel out.
... My understanding is that balanced operation tends to cancel even order distortion components (e.g., 2nd, 4th, 6th harmonics, etc.), but not odd order distortion components (e.g., 3rd, 5th, 7th harmonics, etc.). And generally speaking odd order distortion components are more objectionable than even order harmonic distortion components.
However, given that he "suspects it would be fine," and given that you are happy (or at least encouraged) with the results you are getting at this point, I suppose it is reasonable to put this issue aside.
Again, this is a little over my head Al, so maybe some layman's advice, please.
With a speaker change pending, I may consider doing the same with the amp. I may then send the amp in for a tune-up beforehand. Is there something I could ask Doug Dale at Coda to do to limit the output voltage of the balanced outputs. Knowing what you have explained to me so far, yes, I can just turn down the volume on the DAC, but what of any prospective purchasers? I wouldn't want to have to go to the trouble of having to explain all this, especially when I don't understand it all that well myself.
Why do you think this voltage is so high here? What would be the intended equipment to run balanced at this voltage?
I’m
certainly open for you to share your thoughts on speakers that you have considered in the past. What I find a little odd is that if you are aiming towards
ML’s, are the speaker you have tried in the past not living up to what you
expect from ML’s, (which I already have)?
My wife and I love our
Spires, we will not give then up until we can find something better, which I
think will be pretty difficult on our budget.
I would actually
purchase new unit first, before letting the Spires go just to ensure they sound
equally as good. The focus for me being on something smaller and more
efficient.
With regards to the
listening position. My existing room is only 12’ deep. With the speaker 2 1/2’
of the back wall and my chair, a pushed up against the step down into the sunken
living area, my ears are around 9’ away from the speakers and it sounds pretty
darn good to me.
I find if you abide by
ML’s flashlight method in setting up your listening position, this general rule
works pretty well from any reasonable distance.
I was running a pair of GoldenEar Forcefeild 4 subs and wound up selling them as I found the bass on the Spires perfect my listening experience.
Is there something I could ask Doug Dale at Coda to do to limit the output voltage of the balanced outputs?
I presume you meant to refer to the amp’s balanced inputs, not outputs. I would recommend against asking him to do anything to make the amp more optimal for use with the high output voltage of your DAC, because it would likely make it less suitable for use with whatever DAC or other source components a future purchaser of your amp may want to use with it.
What you might ask him about, though, is if it would be feasible to drastically increase the input impedance of the amp’s balanced inputs. Very few tube-based source components can drive 1K properly, and many solid state source components would have trouble as well. So if it is practicable for him to make such a change, it would increase the amp’s versatility.
Why do you think this voltage is so high here? What would be the intended equipment to run balanced at this voltage?
I have no idea. (And btw the unbalanced output voltage of the DAC is also far higher than usual). My initial instinct was to suspect that the high output voltages of the DAC might be optimal for use with W4S’s own preamps and integrated amps, but looking at the gain and sensitivity specs for their currently produced models (which are fairly normal numbers) I doubt that is the explanation.
After a few hours of listening, the best listening experience, at least for me, seems to be running balance with the DAC (which by the way I love), at full volume. This produces the most lively soundstage for my ears. This set-up may make poor quality recordings sound worse, but if things are right, I really don't think it could sound any better. As long as I'm not hurting anything and W4S gives its blessing, I think I'll stick with the most common term used in these forums and Enjoy the Music" Thanks again to all for your detailed help and advice.
Washington yes,
but the state. Son lives in LA, maybe one day?
Sure. 40 days risk free home trial is handy. No re-stocking fee. Shipping is free. Your only risk is < $30 UPS fee to return. Antero speakers are small and very easy to handle unlike big speakers. Set up is very easy due to the clear and transparent sound signature. All Wavetouch speakers are least influenced by Room acoustics due to Wavetouch technology. Don't need much breaking in period with my speakers. You only need one day to evaluate Antero speaker. **All wires (in the right direction) don't need more than 1 day to burn in. All caps and resistors are ran more than 200 hours before insert to the cabinet. Your only risk is about $30 ups fee to return. I'll send you a return tag. My UPS account is about 30-40% lower than regular account. Alex / wavetouch audio
Thank you Alex,
I will consider your kind offer.
Do your speakers come in any other finishes, such as white?
No White. Only natural color wood cabinet with the Tong oil. This Russian Baltic Birch doesn't take paint or dye. The color becomes deeper and golden brown year after year. Alex / wavetouch audio
Short and sweet: I was in love with my old Boston Acoustics T830s for decades. I still respect the hell out of them for natural reproduction of all genres. However, about 3 years ago I replaced them with Canton Ergo 1200DCs. My search is over. Even compared them with Vandersteen Treo CTs costing boatload more. My search is over. YMMV
PS: I still can't bring myself to part with the BAs. They sit off to the side in my basement. Every once in a while I hook 'em back up. What a great price to performance ratio. Too bad my kids don't appreciate this stuff. I am looking for someone who can really enjoy great speakers. Guess I'll have to consider setting up a system in my garage.
Looks like the 1200DC is no longer in production. They now offer the 690, 670 & the 620DC in the Ergo series. Looks like they may be difficult to test drive on this side of the pond?
Are you still with me Al? I was planning on sending my amp in for a tune-up and I asked CODA about some of your original querries and this was their response: "
1k was a misprint in some manuals that keeps popping up like a zombie. I even found it on our website after we restored it from a hack. The input stage of the CSiB preamp can easily be over driven by a DAC with that output level. Best option would be lower the DAC output and use the volume control in the CSiB to increase SPL.
FYI, the standard for balanced input before 'high end audio' got involved was 600 Ohms. The low impedance improved noise reduction. Any properly designed SS amp should not have a problem but that does not mean that some high end amps won't crap out. Again 10k not 1k"
So a misprint, but it seems they still suggest to turn the volume down on the DAC and use the volume control on the amp. Didn't say with balanced or RCA though?
I'm also going to convert to the V1 specs for this amp: 150 Watts per channel Class AB into 8 Ohms, 300 Watts per channel Class AB into 4 Ohms, Class A ~18 Watts
Just to get more of that Class A!
Excellent news that the balanced input impedance is 10K, not 1K. So your DAC and almost all other DACs or other source components having solid state output stages will have no problem driving the balanced inputs of the amp. Although a goodly number of components having tube-based output stages would still experience some degree of deep bass rolloff and/or other sonic issues.
... it seems they still suggest to turn the volume down on the DAC and use the volume control on the amp. Didn’t say with balanced or RCA though?
The voltages of the balanced and single-ended outputs of the DAC are both much higher than usual by similar proportions. So the DAC’s volume control should most likely be turned down in either case. And since you have found balanced interconnections to be preferable, it appears that you should continue with that approach, while experimenting a bit to determine an optimal setting of the DAC’s volume control.
And happy holidays to you and your family! Best regards, -- Al
Thank you so much for responding. I really appreciate your sound (no pun intended) knowledgeable advice!
What were your thoughts on converting the amp to the V1 specs? 150 Watts per channel Class AB into 8 Ohms, 300 Watts per channel Class AB into 4 Ohms, Class A ~18 Watts so as to get more of class A?This from my now V3 (400 Watts @ 8 ohms/800 Watts @ 4 ohms)
Coda was saying they sell 10 times more V1's (150w) compared to their V3's (400w).
I went from a 200W @8 ohm/ 400W @4 ohm McIntosh integrated that I had to run at 85+ out od 100 to get my Martin Logan Spires to sing whereas the CSiB sounded darn good at 65 out of 100 on the volume scale.
I may change my speakers eventually to less power demanding units, but in the meantime, I still wish to enjoy my Spires and not sure if the V1 configuration will suffice?
What were your thoughts on converting the amp to the V1 specs?
Although I have no experience with Coda amps or ML speakers, it seems to me like it could very possibly be a worthwhile change.
As you appear to realize, most of the time most users are just using a small fraction of an amp’s maximum power capability. And on brief dynamic peaks that may require close to full power, 300 watts into the nominally 4 ohm impedance of your planar speakers at your listening distance should result in a volume at the listening position of around 110 db!
And that would apply even if the speaker did not incorporate a 200 watt bass amplifier, which of course it does.
In saying this I’m assuming that the specified sensitivity of the speaker (91 db/2.83 volts/1 meter, which for its 4 ohm nominal impedance corresponds to 88 db/1 watt/1 meter) is reasonably accurate.
Also, I note in the manual for the speaker that "power handling" of 250 watts per channel is specified. So the speakers apparently wouldn’t even be able to handle anything close to the 600 watt/4 ohm power capability of the amp in its present "v2.5" configuration, that you had described earlier.
Regarding the comparison of volume control settings with the McIntosh amp that you mentioned, the volume control settings that are used are dependent on the gain of the amp, not on its maximum power capability. And while there tends to be a **loose** correlation between those two parameters among various amplifiers, there are a great many cases in which higher powered amps have lower gains than lower powered amps.
Happy New Year Al, Sorry to bug ya again, but with altering my CSib to the V1 configuration (
150 Watts per channel Class AB into 8 Ohms, 300 Watts per channel Class AB into 4 Ohms, Class A ~18 Watts), do you think I could still comfortably power a pair of Magnepan .7's, 1.7's or even the 3.7's?
Both the Maggies and your present speakers have the same nominal impedance, into which the reworked amp will be able to supply 300 watts. All three Maggies have specified sensitivities that are 5 db less than the specified sensitivity of your present speakers. The approximate maximum SPL at the listening position of 110 db that I calculated for your present speakers in my previous post did not take into account their powered woofers, which of course the Maggies don't have.
So it seems reasonable to me to simply subtract 5 db from the 110 db to derive an approximate estimate of the maximum SPL the revised amp would be able to generate with the Maggies at your listening position.
And 105 db at the listening position is certainly enough for most of us. Although I have a few classical symphonic recordings on labels such as Telarc, Sheffield Lab, and Reference Recordings which have been engineered with minimal or no dynamic compression, that can reach 100 to 105 db at my listening position on occasional brief dynamic peaks, while being listened to at average SPLs in the mid-70s. But recordings having such wide dynamic range are rarely encountered.
Thank you for your helpful and detailed response Al! How do you figure all this stuff out? I have a few other speakers in mind that I’d like to get the same answer on. If you can let me in on the secret I won’t bug you so much. Paul
The calculations I do for this purpose involve logarithms, which I do using a scientific calculator. But a simpler method, which yields reasonably good results, would be to start with the following calculator. It applies to box-type dynamic speakers, and if the calculation is being performed for planar speakers such as Martin-Logans or Maggies that are listened to at typical distances (such as yours) add around 5 db or so to the results it provides. The reason being that as listening distance increases SPLs fall off more rapidly for box-type dynamic speakers than in the case of planar speakers. (And in fact the volume produced by a planar speaker may be greater at say 2 meters than at 1 meter, since the upper and lower parts of a planar speaker will generally be more on axis at 2 meters than at 1 meter).
high-amp - I am not sure where you are in your speaker search , but if you can listen to a pair of Audio Physic I would highly recommend them . I have been a stat user for many years now . I have owned the Martin Logan Vantage , Quad 2905 , King Sound King and Inneround kaya . and Eminent technology lf8 , Magnepan 20.1 1.6 1.7 .
The high frequencies on the Audio Physic match the stats for there transparency in this region . Some how they image and sounstage in a similar way as well . They just disappear .
Just a suggestion I would like to pass along as these have been the first boxed speakers that I have heard do this as good as stats .
So I can tell I'm going to fail at this miserably as I was never any good at math. I purchased a USB mic thinking I was going to cure everything with the Room Correction Wizard and as soon as I opened the program, I was so overwhelmed I sent the mic back immediately!
I'm still trying to figure the efficiency ratings and frequency ranges of speakers and how all that works. Really, I just want good sound in a system that is matched up correctly.
Thank you for sharing the HT website, I will see if I can figure it out, but I may be back to ask you your professional opinion again! (can I hire you?)
I will be keeping the CSib for some time now as it's in getting the current adjusted to the V1 configuration as well as a new set of caps as we speak (might as well get a full tune-up whilst in). I would like to follow up with some new speakers, probably something much more efficient, something I don't have to play so loud to enjoy.
Thank you too maplegrovemusic. I have heard good things about EP's as well, Is there a particular model you recommend?
I am thinking of starting a new thread about dilemma and see where that leads...Stay tuned.
high-amp I currently have the Tempo VI right now . I am selling them to upgrade to a larger model . I am not sure what will come up at the time I am ready to pull the trigger . The tempos I have retailed for $5500 . And I really like this model . There is a Classic 30 I believe here on Audiogon . At the 3k to 5k pricepoint I would definitely want to hear a speaker in a lineup to make sure I like their sound signature .Pretty much all companies entry level on up share the same sound .
Hey MGM, so 30 pairs of speaker in the last few years. Sounds like, let alone the
In the last few years I have been on a journey with equipment , Over 30 pairs of speakers . There has been one pair with me from the start , they are King Sound King v1 electrostats . They have and will be lifelong speakers .
Sorry, so what I was trying to say, was from your System Page on Audiogon, it looks like your King Sound King v1 was your life long speaker but now you're already on your first set of Emerald Physic ( Tempo VI) speakers and going to upgrade again. That's a lot of indecisiveness, let me know when you're officially "Done"
high-amp - I like to buy speakers and other gear as well . Anything that comes on MPLS craigslist that is underpriced or if I really want to hear it I will pay market value . Some day I will sit down and write a review of each . Because I actually owned the gear . (That's a inside joke for some of you ) Nothing has dethroned the Kings , not even a much newer version of kingsound called the ks17 that costs over double the price of the original kings .
The only thing the Audio Physic falls short on is the bass . In my larger 25 foot by 25 foot room it cant pressurize the room .
Subs then? I always feel they are so difficult to set up. I'd be so happy with a full meal deal (one box). Sounds like the Emerald Physisc's maybe off the table then. Have a great night MGM and thank you for sharing! Paul
There are so many good people on this site willing to help and share their valuable opinions. Then there are guys like you. Thanks for making fun of me and my situation. Oh, and by the way, my speakers don't have tweeters
If you do want to try a different speaker Revel f208 at 5k full retail are awesome, they have a huge sweet spot and have great separation and dynamics, they play loud with low distortion. Good luck
Great recommendation Chris, thank you. The other 2 units I was considering (and Revel was on my radar!) is the Salk Song 3 Ecore and the Legacy Signature SE's. One thing that both these audio companies tout is the fact that most dealers have a 50% mark up their products, hence getting more value with their offerings. Have you had any experience with either or? If anyone else cares to chime in...
Thanks ishkabibil, I think I have come to the conclusion that I will keep my existing speakers because when everything is right, they sound wonderful. Then I will pick up the second set of speakers specifically for classic rock.
I took the dare and just purchased a pair of Sansui SP-2000's. They need a lot of luvin' but quick first impression (listening in the garage) they sound MARVELOUS! Is this the answer?
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