'Diamond' cantilevers: a man's best friend?

Even better is no cantilever (Decca/London).

The diamond at the end of the cantilever is man made and shouldn't be that expensive.......a case of marketing.

Try Dynavector KARAT 17DS from the 80s, this is the most affordable MC with Gemstone cantilever, very nice cartridge! 

@chakster 
Thanks for the tip, will keep an eye on that one. I have two MC's with 'gemstone' cantilevers: Klipsch MCZ-10 (ruby) and Ortofon MC-5000 (sapphire) and both sound excellent in different ways.

What I would like to know is if these recent 'diamond' cantilever MC's have something to offer that set them apart, not in dollars but in sound.

Interesting, i also have that Klipsch Ruby and Ortofon (but MC2000:)  

chakster

Try Dynavector KARAT 17DS from the 80s, this is the most affordable MC with Gemstone cantilever, very nice cartridge!

That was a good cartridge more than 35 years ago. Today, I'd rather use a new Dynavector 17DX.

Indeed! Both these systems - as well as several others - have reinforced my opinion that not much real 'progress' has been made in the sonic capabilities of MC cartridges, despite all the claims to the contrary.

I reference my growing 'family' of vintage cartridges to two top level 'modern' systems: Transfiguration Proteus and vdHul Colibri XPW Blackwood. To my ears all these systems are part of the same 'level playing field', each with its own particular strenghts (and weaknesses).

No matter how hard I try I'm not able to hear the 'worlds apart' improvements that modern MC's are supposed to offer. Maybe my hearing is inadequate, maybe my alignment skill are or maybe, just maybe we're being taken for a ride.....

The "better Decca" is a London ;-) .

Diamond rod is not a good material for a cantilever. It’s heavy. Boron pipe is the best, followed by aluminum alloy pipe. Both are extremely rigid and light. 

I’m not a fan of boron and ruby rods either.

Boron pipes have not been manufactured for decades and boron rods are no longer made either. Some stock remains. 

@cleeds -  There have been three iterations(every one an improvement), since the original Karat17D was introduced.   I love my 17D3!   The X is the latest, of the same model line.   I may have to think about it.   http://www.dynavector.com/products/cart/e_17dx.html

@invictus- While it may be true, that diamond is heavy, Dynavector has skirted that, by using a very short/small cantilever in their Karats.

From this follows that ''one piece'' diamond /stylus combo like by Sony 88 D is superior to glued in styli.

:)

http://fidelisanalog.com/2018/10/20/sony-xl-88d/

@rodman99999 Yup, that’s one way to do it. Ortofon MC Century also has a rather truncated diamond cantilever and it’s my favorite sounding MC cartridge of all time. However, I would still take a 2M Black over it. Just cannot accept the MC sound character. It’s significantly distorted from source tape. 

In today’s world, aluminum pipe, or aluminum alloy pipe is the way to go.

But if it was cost no object and it was still manufactured, I would take boron pipe as the ultimate cantilever. 

"Just cannot accept the MC sound character. It’s significantly distorted from source tape. " Way too many MCs/arms/alignments/loadings, for me to make a blanket statement(though you may have been referring only to the Ortofon). I do also enjoy my Soundsmith SMMC1-M, MI, with it’s ruby cantilever(an Aida, in a different shell). An exemplary match, for my Magnepan arm.

I have been in love with the Koetsu sound since 1976, but my first one was a gift from wife a few years ago: Rosewood Signature Platinum with diamond cantilever.

The cantilever and stylus are ground from one piece of clear white diamond. So it is promoted, and so it appears.

Sound is the most refined I have ever heard in my system. The only sound close is the Miyajima Zero mono. My system has changed too much (air bearing tonearm and TT) for previous comparisons to be meaningful, so there are only a few cartridges which can be compared: London Decca, Dynavector, Nottingham T4 (MM), AN Io, Zero and KRSP. In increasing order of preference.

But there is a very strong caveat here: set-up. My set-up skills, patience, and instrumentation have improved considerably in the last years, and so, for all I know, the Decca would be king of the heap if set up as carefully as the Zero and KRSP.

That's what my system needs: a wife with money and good taste.....oh,wait....

Dear @edgewear: "  have reinforced my opinion that not much real 'progress' has been made in the sonic capabilities of MC cartridges,..."

Well, till today the transducer/cartridge foundations are still the same and nothing can change about due to the rudimentary analog medium. The transducer is a mechanical/electrical rudimentary/arcaic device.

I think that we can't say exactly that " no progress " with because exist some kind of progress that made it some kind of improvements in the quality level performance of this kind of rudimentary trasducer, over the years we have some changes ( not on its foundation. ):
improved the material wire in the cartridge coils as its wiring coils shapes, improved the stylus tip shapes, improved the stylus tip polish pproccess and in top cartridges that treatment make it twice time, improved cartridge material body and shapes, improved the cantilever materials and building shapes, cartridge " motors " improved too like the Lyra line from the Kleos to the Atlas that is way different for the better than the Titan i or the Dynavector XV-is against the 17D3 or the old Koetsu that really were " terrible " against today ones, improved the magnets in the cartridges from samarium cobalt to neodynium- allnic-platinum, etc etc.

So, several kind of progress but the essential in a cartridge is exactly the same, can't change because that rudimentary analog medium that we all are enjoying.

Yes, DIAMOND is a man's best friend but not at the ridiculous prices that manufacturers puts on in their top line model. They take advantage of the diamond word that when any human beed read it or heard it all we know that is the higher touted jewell: " if it's diamond it will be the best ". This is the kind of expressions about.

The industrial diamond used in cartridges with out doubt is the best material for cantilevers where we need that the cantilever pass all the stylus tip movements picked up ridding the LP grooves with out adding any single /tiny vibration/resonance developed by the cantilever it self. 
So we need the best material in the Young's Modulus scale where nothing used in cartridge cantilevers come close: 1,200 Gpa.
Against that the worst material is aluminum with 69, titanium only 110, beryllium 287 and Boron with 400 Gpa. Btw, the Boron yuield strength is a very high value over 3,100 by comparison the aluminum is under 200.

Now, diamond per se makes that the cartridge be " the best "?, certainly not if it's true that the cantilever build material is important the main subject is that are the sum of the parts in the cartridge design and the qulity level execution of that design what it matters and what makes the differences for the better or not.

Those cartridges as the 88D or the Audio Technica MC-1000 ( I owned both. ) where the cantilever and stylus comes in a single piece are not better performers than today top LOMC models.

The today top cartridge manufacturers makes its election and voted for Boron for very good reasons ( diamond on top models is to market top models at non justified prices and that's all. ).
Btw, solid Boron ( rod ) is way less resonant than hollow/pipe boron type.

Name of the game: the sum of the parts and the very old ( 60's . ) ADC 26/27 non-MC cartridge confirm that statement because I tested with everything the same against the Etna SL, Goldfinger, XV-1s, top My Sonic Lab/Air Tigth and Colibri and no one of them outperformed overall and the 26/27 came with aluminum cantilever and a humble elliptical stylus in a plastic body:


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/adc-26-best-pritchard-cartridge-ever-or-best-cartridge-ever

Regards and enjoyb the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@rauliruegas Diamond cantilevers are always rods, aluminum alloy and boron cantilevers can be pipes. The numbers you posted are misleading. 

Dear @invictus005: No are not:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_773.html

in this page you brose at the end and make click in tensile/strength.....


http://biotsavart.tripod.com/bmt.htm 


Pipes always are more resonant.

R.

@rauliruegas All of those numbers are for wire/rods. Please show me Young’s modulus for diamond rod versus boron pipe. A boron pipe will be significantly more rigid than the numbers for boron rod you have listed. Boron pipe will be as rigid as a diamond rod and much lighter.

There is no more boron pipe for cantilevers. Useless to continue with you.

R.

That’s what I already said 10 posts ago...

@rauliruegas 
I think I can agree with your "sum of the parts" conclusion, which seems to emphasize the importance of the talents of the designer. After all he's the guy who's putting the parts together. No gals as yet I believe, but this might change with the current 'diamond' fad.....

It also confirms my own - limited - experience that modern cartridges are not necessarily superior to succesful older designs.  Apparently even if they're as old as those '60's ADC's.

It seems there are no new 'magical' parts or materials that give modern cartridges a decisive 'edge' over vintage ones. Only 'magical marketing', which would include those 'diamond' cantilevers....

Well, diamond cantilever is just one design among others. A cartridge should be seen as one unit. When a normal one is not your cup of tea, I doubt that the same with diamond cantilever will bite the bullet.
Zyx for example had one (Sigma?) with diamond cantilever and some said, the Universe with regular cantilever beat it.
When you have 2 identical carts, one regular cantilever and the other one with diamond cantilever (Koetsu Stones for example), the one with diamond cantilever shows more details, is a bit sharper in focus and the soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. They can sound a bit more detailed overall with improved dynamics (depending on records of course). 
But it will depend on your System in general I guess. For some it is not worth the money, others are happy with it.

Hi there

I used to have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and Jade Platinum - both with boron cantilever. 

I now own a Blue Lace Platinum with diamond cantilever.

While, obviously there will be a "sound" & character difference between the Jade & Blue Lace stones (assuming both have the same boron cantilever) - I can only agree with both "terry9" and "syntax" observations & experiences with their diamond cantilevers - in general.

To quote "terry9" - "Sound is the most refined I have ever heard in my system"

To quote "syntax" - "the one with diamond cantilever shows more details, is a bit sharper in focus and the soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. They can sound a bit more detailed overall with improved dynamics (depending on records of course)."

My own experience - moving from the boron cantilever of the Jade, to the diamond cantilever of the Blue Lace - much much more refined and smoother; higher resolution & speed; slightly wider and deeper soundstage - enough said


Enjoy !!! 

I have a Koetsu Jade with diamond cantilever.
when I bought the Jade originally it had a standard cantilever but after an “accident” (from which I still experience ptsd) it went back to Koetsu via the UK importer and they took pity on me and offered to rebuild it with a diamond cantilever at something less than the crazy retail price...
Maybe I was expecting too much but mounted in my FR 66s arm with Arche headshell and aggalos silver headshell wires it gets brought out once in a blue moon: my vastly preferred London Decca Reference , various FR 7s and SPU’s  all (to my low rent ears) sound nicer.
Somebody I know with much better hearing than me and a huge amount of experience listening to high end systems (as well as much live classical) prefers my Koetsu Urishi vermillion to the Jade in my system.
His comment is that the Jade makes everything sound like the Jade ...

These last diverting opinions seem to emphasize that there is no intrinsic sonic benefit to the use of diamond cantilever.
when I started this thread I had no experience with it, but since then I have acquired two of those: Dynavector Karat Nova 13D (with wood body) and Sato Musen Zen Diamond (direct couple design similar to Victor MC L1000). Both are great systems, but not 'worlds apart' from other cantilevers.

These last diverting opinions seem to emphasize that there is no intrinsic sonic benefit to the use of diamond cantilever.

A diamond cantilever per se, is simply a gemstone similar to sapphire or ruby.
To expect a 'revolution' in sound is perhaps a bit optimistic...?
The SONY XL-88D.....unlike the other cartridges wielding diamond cantileverS......is a ONE-PIECE diamond/cantilever construction and that is a massive difference.
One only needs to compare the sonic results of the NORMAL XL-88 to the DIAMOND XL-88D to hear this...🤗

@halcro, my understanding is that the Koetsu diamond cantilevers are one-piece, ie the stylus and cantilever is hewn from one piece of diamond so as to eliminate the interface between stylus and cantilever.
I have a love/hate relationship with the Jade dc :)

What about ''no cantilever at all?'' I already mentioned Decca and
Ikeda 9 series but nobody reacted. Decca is obviously beter known
than Ikeda but the lack of knowledge about Ikeda is very curious.

I have seen no evidence @howardalex that the Koetsu diamond styli/cantilevers are hewn from a single piece of diamond.
This is despite searching the Web for photos and even Koetsu's own official site.

As this 'fact' and photos displaying it, would be the No.1 selling and promotional point......the cynic in me is 90% sure that is not the case 🧐

@halcro - I read that it was a single piece of diamond in a review in Absolute Sounds a few years ago, although I suppose that’s not direct from the horses mouth ...

@nandrc - totally agree :)

Well, this topic was purported to be about the merits - or lack thereof - of diamond cantilevers. And not about the merits of ’no cantilever’ designs. These may very well be superior to anything with a cantilever, diamond or otherwise. I own the Ikeda 9 Rex and know its capabilities very well. To some extend these also apply to the Victor MC-L1000 and Sato Musen Zen, both based on the so called ’direct couple’ principle. They do have a cantilever of sorts (actually diamond in case of the Zen), but the coils are located directly above the stylus. They come close to the Ikeda in terms of dynamics and immediacy, but not quite. Probably because the ’cantilever’ does offer some compliance. The Ikeda 9 has virtually no compliance at all, which probably explains the fenomenal immediacy but also limits its functionality. Don’t try to play even slightly warped records with it!

@halcro @howardalex

This morning had some photomicrographs taken of my KRSP with dc. Minimal wear after 980 hours (maybe lack of wear is due to US cleaning). Also appears that stylus is affixed to cantilever, but the photo is inconclusive. Certainly no blob of glue as some report.

My old post detected above, since 2018 i upgraded my Dynavector Karat 17DS with later version Karat 17D2, but it’s still sealed in the box. Dynavector designer Dr.Tominari made extremely short diamond cantilevers while SONY "D" comes with extremely long gemstone cantilever and 50% of it is long aluminum collar tube. Completely different design, but both called "diamond cantilevers".

According to sound Smith one of the best cantelevers is ...free.   Just go pick a cactus needle.... LOL. 

Another organic cantilever is bamboo from Miyajima 

@howardalex , you say that the Jade makes everything sound like the Jade. That is the opposite of my experience with the KRSP/dc - the KRSP/dc makes massed violins violinny, solo voice voicey, organ organic, but in a supernatural way.

But this is after nearly seven years of tuning, and during some of this time the cartridge sounded harsh. Just now it's supernaturally clear and sweet, at 85K loading.

In my system, setup has made the difference, that and turntable noise. I use a Trans-Fi Terminator on a DIY air bearing TT, and just made a significant improvement by making up some copper pivots for the wand. What does the Jade sound like with the motor completely disconnected? That is, powered down, no belt?

Terry, I would be interested in those copper pivot screws. 
Maybe you could sent me PM.
Regards,

harold-not-the-barrel"I would be interested in those copper pivot screws."

What is a "copper pivot screw" I have never heard of such a thing please explain thank you.

Clear, a copper pivot screw is a mod to the particular tonearm that we both use.