DK Design VS-1 versus 300b sound

Mambo1066, I remember your origional posts, infact, I was one who had emailed you for advise on DK VS I. I have the origional DK VS MKI and have been very pleased. I have not posted for awhile here (being content enjoying my system), but, had to join in and give my warm hearted biased support to this product and Daniel at DKdesigngroup. Look, I can talk endlessly about the comparisons I have done with friends with other high end systems. However, instead of people being uncivilied and nasty, just call/email Daniel directly/. He and the DK team have been very helpful with all my questions no matter how minor. You even have a 60 day return policy where they pay for the shipping (if I am not mistaken)!! Be open to others, more competitive new products only means good news for consumers.

The review was incomplete in a big way. The reviewer chose not to try additional tubes, which to me are the essence of the advantage of having such a product. One can change flavors by spending, just a small amount for two relatively inexpensive tubes.
To let that option go by the boards, when the question begs to be answered, was a tragic mistake.
I changed my tubes from the originals, and for all intents and purposes, I purchased a NEW amp.
I have mentioned before that this is the Gryphon, with a tube sounding pre stage--which, to me would be about a perfect match. I think the reviewer was simply a little 'lazy' by letting that opportunity go by.
Even though I am registered as a commercial user, I have zero affiliation with DK, as they will attest to, if asked.
I only like products which set new standards, in given price ranges.
I used this amp in the final stages of voicing my loudspeaker line, the LSA, after having used the wonderful Halcro line up of separates. To my surprise the sound was wonderful. "Musical" is overused, but the only appropriateword to describe my experience with this amp.
Nicksgem10s, mentioned that he would be interested in the viewpoints of three Audiogon members with more experience than he, well, having owned my own store, and worked for two VERY well known speaker companies, as Director of Sales for one, and President Emeritus,(an honorary title, as I am disabled.) Here is a gargantuan thumbs all the way up. Get one and don't look back. This piece is for real. Only people who can't compete, or are jealous of 'cheaper with better performance' could possibly make negative comments on this piece.

I didn't know what I started when I mentioned my DK was replacing an Audion Silver Knight 300b. The way it happened was I traded-in my Audion MK I version and Audion phono pre-amp on Zingali Overture II speakers as they were more efficent for single-ended use. I intended to get the MK II version as funds permitted later. Being amp-less now except for Nakamichi 5.1 I bought DK VS-1 since it also has a phono input. The Zingali speakers are only a couple days old now and the current JJ tubes also are not broken in, so this response needs to tempered with that in mind. I would characterize the DK sound as being very "analog" in nature. Superior to decent push-pull tubes but not as enveloping as 300b. I would not use the term "transistor slam" with this amp but certainly has more than adequate "oommmph" for 8" Zingali's. I found the Phono section to me more than adequate, am not sure but may be the best feature on this integrated. Overall best feature I like: ability to tailor sound with pre-amp tubes. overall worst feature: the neccesity to find the correct tube on pre-amp to fit your tastes......hope this helps, Mike.

The amp was just reviewed on Soundstage.

The DK sounds better "to me" than most separates costing more. I agree with the hostility issue here. Why are people so threatened with something new?
I own one, and am not objective now, but I was when I bought it.
I have owned many pieces, (you name it) an it is better than most.
Live and let live, this amp is GOOOOD.

Jmcgrogan2 makes an interesting point, when he suggests it's hard to believe that a hybrid could sound like an SET (or visa versa I guess).

Thirty years ago tube amps and solid state amps sounded very different, and they each had their strengths and weaknesses. Over time designers have been working to diminish the weaknesses and improve the strengths, and the result is that solid state and (at least push-pull) tube are becoming more and more comparable, picking up more of the positive traits of the other. Will pure solid state ever be as life-like as tube? I don't know, but it's getting closer.

This may happen even for SET amps. I have personally heard SET amps in recent years that do not have the traditional drawbacks of early SETs - which to my ear were loose bass and rolled highs. We no longer have to make that tradeoff in order to obtain the glorious mids of SETs. Even the power of SET's have increased somewhat, so that we can use a little bit less efficient speakers with them.

Stranger things have happened. Let's be skeptical but open-minded.

Art

Could we turn down the hostility? It's fine if you love it or hate it, but why not show a little respect to other people on the thread. I would hate for things to get to the point where somebody who wanted to learn something was afraid to ask a question.

some of the DK claims may be over the top, but this industry is filled with hype like "giant killer," "beats everything twice it's price" etc. etc.

I think we will all know more about how good DK is when more people hear the product, but why bash something you haven't heard? Why attack somebody who likes the product? If the amp sucks, word will get out quickly, it will just be another flavor of the month, and they will go away.

I've had a chance to listen to the amp extensively. At the risk of angering many of you with my opinion, it's a very good amp! I'm not a dealer, and I don't care what you buy, but I think many of you might be surprised at how good this thing is. High end gear is getting better and cheaper, and I think that's great!

It's not for everybody, and it may not be for you, but how about listening to the amp before you decide if it's any good? Dk dealers will give you back your money if you don't like it, and that's about as fair as you can get.

Thanks

Dear Ttrhp,

I think you are absolutely right. I am sorry about this, it was indeed very unprofessional. I just couldn't resist.

Regards,

Daniel Khesin
www.DKdesignGroup.com

Dear Daniel,
I think it is very un-profesional for an owner of a company to jump into these kind of argument and make the kind of statement like you just did.here is my advice from one business owner to another.."stay out of these kind of argument,you ll have much to lose but nothing to gain."

Hchilcoat,I also received a lot of flack about my thread to the point where I received spam email.My thread was directed
to other DK owners. In my case it's been a great upgrade.
Just remember hearing is believing. I also have no connection to DK Design other than I am a very happy customer.

daniel,man was that rich! HA........HA........HA.

Jmcgrogan, I never posted anything about the Paradigm or Magnepan speakers. So I just have one stupid naive post.

Dear Hchilcoat,

Actually, you forgot to mention that if you invert the polarity by rewiring the unit inside and then rub the glass while keeping your finger firmly planted in the tube socket and say “Abracadabra”, a secret compartment will open up on the rear of the unit and contain the keys to great treasure left over by the Duke of Norfolk and then passed on to the King of England. The Portland Vase can then be used to damp all unwanted vibrations inside the listening room. Don’t forget to pass this on. Thanks.

Daniel Khesin
www.DKdesignGroup.com

I'm sorry some of us mortals are uneducated Jmcgrogan2.If you read the thread hchilcoat posted he's just looking for info on the DK.If you think the thread is so beneath you why not go on to something that's not.I personally don't own a DK or know Hchilcoat but have been interested in the DK in case there is a chance it might be a great product.I thought that maybe some of the educated could help ME!Can't we stay positive. Kevin

Jmcgrogan2,first you call Hchilcoat a shill,now that it is clear he is not one you attack his thread.If the thread is beneath you do not post,after all you and the rest of the shill police are the ones the keep the DK threads current

If the topic weren't so comical, you may get more serious responses.

C'mon, seriously, a hybrid integrated sounding like a 300B tube amp? If that happens, one of the two units is broken.

For your next thread how about:

Paradigm Studio 100 v3 versus Magnepan MG-20.1 sound.

No knock on Paradigm, good speaker, nice value in it's price range, but you can't compare the sound of dynamic drivers with planars.

A more obvious comparison you could have used would be comparing a D&K with a Counterpoint amp, as both are hybrid designs.

It's uneducated threads like your's that make medications necessary.

It is interesting that when someone posts a question involving a DK Design amp, they are jumped on as a shill for DK Design, even when they say nothing touting the virtues of the product. If my thread had been "Plinius 9200 versus 300b sound" I don't think I would have been accused of being a shill for Plinius. Out of 40+ responses to this thread only a few had anything to do with the topic.

As far as I know there is no diabolical marketing scheme by DK to send out legions of shills to take over the audiophile market. However, if you hook up a white noise generator to your DK VS-1 MKII and stare at the wall, you can actually hear Daniel Khesin's voice describing his plans to take control of the world....

COme on guys, don't forget to take your medication!

yeah. that's not to say it isnt a good product - i bet it is, in fact i am sure it is..... but anytime you read such hyperbloic language, you should take pause.

Hey Artg, remember Sam's Radio Shack Optimus CD-3400? How about the Bel Canto EVO 2? Melos SHA-1? The list is endless.

People love a giant killer! It's all flavour of the month.

im skeptical. i reember when people all said the Marsh was THE BOMB, that man others were going to be out of business - and well, what happened there is history.....

I will be interested in reading the reviews from 3 senior Audigon members who have much more audio experience than I ever will. I have never seen so many people enthusiastically doubt anything. I have had it in my system for about 2 months now and already know how I feel about it. I do understand the doubt as nearly every review I read in TAS and Stereophile would have the reader believe they need to upgrade with each review. The reviews here will be without any paid advertisements at stake which should shed some light on things.

These DK Design guys are serious! They are obviously very confident. I enjoyed reading about the three reviewers and their histories in audio (and otherwise). I'm sure there are many people here with interesting audio stories to tell. Each system page should have a bio section. Could this be a new way of marketing; the Audiogoner Review?

John

Funny you said that. A guy e-mailed me the other day asking my opinion on a VGC pair of Duetta Sig's he had found.

Anyway, I find this morning in my e-mail a thank you for the help...he bought them and has them setup and playing beautiful music! You'll never guess what he is driving them with...Yep!

He says their a little harder to drive than his Maggies but the amp has no problem and sounds wonderful.

Dave

Art A. - I like you idea of extended listening in various environments, with plenty of contenders on hand. I won the First Sound Presence Deluxe MK II you mentioned - and a Berning ZH270, connected to Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage's via Stereovox IC/speaker cables.

I would LOVE to hear that thing in my system. Anyway, make the rounds....

We're countin on you for integrity and brutal honesty! Art G.

Thanks for the info.

Hey Dave, they should have picked you. I'd be interested in how the DK drives them Apogee's, (laugh my evil laugh). Can it hang with a Krell monster?

Cheers,
John

Dear friends,

We purchased the most expensive spot on Audiogon to anounce the 3 reviewers - the bottom of the Audiogon homepage. I am surprised many people are not seeing this. We will try to anounce this in other sections of Audiogon as well. Thanks.

Daniel Khesin
www.DKdesignGroup.com
Tel 646-485-0754
Fax 646-219-2572

Thanks guys.

Dave

Link to reviewers:

http://dkdesigngroup.com/audiogon/

or go to the main Audiogon page and hit the link at the bottom center of the page.
Tom

Go to Audiogons homepage and go to the bottom of the page, or Click here.

" I'd also like to know who on AudiogoN is testing the units"

Me to, was it posted somewere?

Dave

Mike,
I think the established manufacturers are just trying to please the original owners. AudiogoN caters to second hand owners and demo gear. Established manufacturers don't need to cater to this group. For new manufacturers looking to climb into the market, this is a good move. It's similar to advertising, generating underground (AudiogoN, AA) support.

I'd also like to know who on AudiogoN is testing the units.

I'm also one of DK's three testers. I used to own Conrad Johnson Premier 12's, with preamps CJ 17LS or First Sound Deluxe mk II, so I do have a strong taste - I think - of high quality tube gear.

SET vs DK is to me to be the missing element. I've been meaning for some time to get some SET amplification in my house, and now might be a good time because it could go head to head with the DK.

By the way, I included in my writeup for DK, but it was not presented, that I plan to schlep the DK over to my friends house for testing on his system. It's a very high resolution system - Rowland monoblocks (the new model) and First Sound Deluxe mk II into Thiel 2.4's. So I think this will be quite a battle, even that it's not tube amplification. In particular, the First Sound has black background with explosive clarity that I've not heard matched by other preamps.

I am very open to suggestions regarding my testing of the DK.

artmaltman@yahoo.com

Thanks,
Art

what makes me go hmmmmm is how come other high end manufacturers have not come forward & let some of the membership here test their products,you know they cruise this site & AA to see what people are sayin about their gear & at the very least to check resale values on their gear.

i'd like to see people like krell,levinson,mcintosh,cary & others submit some of their gear for an unbiased & unpaid demo instead of makin us read all about it stereophile.

i think were gonna get the best & most UNBIASED review that has ever been done on a peice of equipment.

i personally think this is a pretty balsy move on dk's part but im quite sure some of the complainers will find fault in it in some way.

Sorry that I was not clear - perhaps a poor attempt at humor. I thought those were some real useful and meaningful posts regarding DK - not shill at all - and I was making fun of some people's knee-jerk reaction (including my own at first) that if someone praises the DK stuff they must be a shill.

Usually the smiling face :-) means "I'm kidding".

Art

Artg, once again, I am VERY impartial, and tell it like it is. I use high end tube eq, and horn speakers(presently) I will have the amp by Friday. I am sick of all the crap around here on products with silly claims. But, in saying this, when I decide to find the best for the money, I put my $$$$ where my mouth is. I will know within a couple weeks, just how good this unit is. BTW I did own the highly touted Pathos Classic one that Sam Tellig rated class A, I thought it sucked, and sold it in a couple days. I sure hope the DK is not the same. I feel more confidant as I said, 3 people I have TT who's ears I trust, have praised this puppy. The question is, will I?

intersting choice of who was selected to test the DK - two guys with SS gear, and one with an integrated tube amp.

Since everyone and their grandmother is claiming this integrated beats their separate tubed gear, and more importantly, that's the only way it could be used by someone with tubed separates - I was dissapointed this unit didn't make it into the hands of a tubeophile with separates.

Of course it is going to impress the SS owners - how could it not.....???? makes you go hmmmmmmm.

I was the first to post any info about DK as forafistfullofdolars. I assume that as I was a newbie to Audiogon I am possibly referred to a one of the shill posters. I can assure you that I am not. I own the MK1 DK amp. I live in Spain! I am certain Daniel could have found people closer to home to send the amp to. It cost me $500 to ship from the USA to here!
I still stand by what I said originally. Even in the MK1 guise, it is an amazingly good amp at the price. The fact that I only paid $927 on ebay for mine makes a huge bargain. Add $180 for money well spent on CCA tubes which improved the sound by at least 10%.

I was more than happy to post my thoughts on the amplifier, particularly as Daniel Khesin was happy to give me advice and information even though I was intending to purchase my amp from an ebay seller and not from his company or one of his distributors. His subsequent advice with system selection was spot on and I have him to thank for the pair of Speaker Art super clefs that now proudly stand in my listening room as well as the recommendation of Siemens CCA which improved the sound by at least 10%, making them a great upgrade at $180.00!
Daniel also advised me that for the small improvement in sound quality of the MK2 over the Mk1, it was not worth me going to the extra expense.

I know from the numerous e mail responses that I received asking about the DK amp after my original post, that there are several happy DK owners out there who can back up the claims.

I would have loved to have been one of the three selected to review the MK2, as I am curious to know how much of an improvement there really is over the MK1, particularly as there was no way I would have returned the amp from Spain to the USA!! He he...

The Audiogon member reviewers are being announced today and I look forward to reading their comments

regards

raymon

Art, who ya calling a shill?

Shill ! ; - )

Loontoon, what amp are you bidding on?

Thanks for digging up those references to the folks who switched from tube amps to DK amp. I actually did read those when they first appeared and I totally forgot about them.
Art

I dunno, I talked to 3 audiogon members who I trust who have and OWN this amp, AND love it. So, I bought one, I will receive this friday. I was told Danial shipped it to me on Monday. I will keep you guys posted. I have just sold a pair of Wavelength Cardinal X1's, so I am really in tune to the 300b sound. I wanted to try this baby with my pinch waist 6922's from the 50's.

Out of curiousity I am bidding on an amp for sale.
But I won't go too high without any other feedback.
The restocking fee is pretty steep it amounts to 500$ to try the amp out. So I'm suspicious.

loon

Dear friends,

The 3 Audiogon members have already been selected and will be announced on the Audiogon homepage later today (Jan. 25th). This will put the product into the hands of very experienced audiophiles and respected Audiogon members. This will result in some very exciting and unbiased reviews.

Stay tuned…

Daniel Khesin
www.DKdesignGroup.com
Tel 646-485-0754
Fax 646-219-2572

i to am curious as to what happened to the offer for 3 members to demo the amp as a matter of fact i cant even find the thread that started all this.

i too am finding the questions lately about the amazing dk design group products to be a little on the strange side to say the least.

for what its worth there's a big difference in"leaping to a guys defense" & saying that when a guy comes straight in without the cover of an alter screen name he should be talked to better than a shill.

mike

We have a custom 300b interstage coupled amp that makes about 7 watts and we have no lack of bass "slam" when coupled with the lovely pair of Samadhi Acoustics Natalias speakers (94db, 4ohm). SPL is higher than we care to use with rock/jazz fusion; voices are incredible. And Phil's bass on the Dead live tapes is quite authoritative.

The push/pull 300b class A interstage coupled amp we are building right now will have even more. So, no; a hybrid type amp is unnecessary and the sound of the 300b is great.

Buy something that is quality made and you don't have reliability problems. Some of that Chinese stuff is real garbage; looks pretty but the insides are lousy.

Hchilcoat,you are correct there is not anything in your posts that amounts to shilling.Seems some here need better recall. Larry.

A pair of speakers built by a local speaker builder (Joe Berky) in Baltimore. They consist of separate monitor and subwoofer cabs. Monitors have an MTM design with a ScanSpeak Revelator tweeter between 2 Audax 5.25 inch carbon fiber midranges. Bass cabs have a single Scanspeak 8 inch driver. Hovland caps and alphacore inductors in the crossovers, about 89-90 db.

I bought a pair of ProAc 2.5's over Audiogon last year. UPS gorillas appeared to have dropped them from about 10 feet. Took them to Joe Berky at SoundProjects to see about repairing them, but ended up returning them to the seller. In the process I got to know joe and was impressed with his speakers.

What brand of speakers do you have, Hchilcoat?

Regards,